Activism and Noninterference

[Anonymous]

I was wondering what the community’s take is on the pros and cons with regards to activism, in light of the importance of noninterference as involves spiritual practice?

I feel, when noninterference is really understood and practiced, it is the ultimate complement to activism; informing when one is over-involved in making other people’s problems their own (or making one’s problem into other people’s) and therefore adding to the problem activism seeks to address. But, I would be lying if I didn’t often confuse apathy and laziness with noninterference and demagoguery with activism.

[Anonymous]

I find these concepts of interest (as some of the Taoist cores I’d only seen ‘written about the talk’ vs how the practices are “energy-practices” and interweave-experimentally, as I’ve learned from Bruce
– what I sought and didn’t find in any of the books I’d read about the subject… only intellectualism that combined Buddhist, Christian-morality, as well as Hindu-Vedic and even “Philosophic translated-contemplations (except perhaps the Tao of Pooh or Lila)… anyway, an example of what I ramble about above is the “non-interference” concept… having seen how, in martial arts, Bruce has shown it relates makes it a different thing (not should I act in this outer event… but someone advances to attack/swat-you.. what is your “non-action” (non-inteference/ wu-wei/ spontaneity/ even “naturalness” being tied together in this).

In short I think the idea needed is different lvls-of-attainment: say “The Mind of Man” as the translation is for the normal-state of mind.. vs The Essence/Body of Individuality (Sage, once one has achieved that realization, vs The Mind of Tao…
So one needs to interpret in those 3 ‘contexts’.. and as I understand, non-interference requires feeling the flow-linkage (the golden-thread that weaves) and not “interfering” with that (not blocking, changing, nor even “trying to add to”)… but this isn’t an analysis, of what I think that is, nor of any reasonableness (ie what “seems to be required” nor “interpreting where one could-should involve” .. rather it is seeing/feeling that “natural” arising (thus the see-knowing is the biggest step, and then flow with.. but until see/know..)
I see the concept of Spontaneity augments this… as how does one determine what is Spontaneous, until what one’s programmes (knee-jerk reactions) are (and the subtle-deeper layers of that)… as well as it isn’t “whim” (which is still being driven by one’s subcon)… how be present enough, to determine What is going on, and What independent action is there (not just following, but not just “rebel-resisting” either .. -neither pure blending, but not merely pushing against the flow, nor randomly going askew.. and “analysis of what looks apparent, what seems appropriate”- these are the result of subcon patterns (as well as addressed in the Taoist-Confucian, and scholarly, and later priestly, vs the sage-realized Presence).
Just a thought

[Anonymous]

Wow, Taokua, that is extremely thorough!

And, I thoroughly agree; breaking it down the way you do reveals the complexity of noninterference’s simplicity.

At the risk of oversimplifying it, I’m wondering about the variety of energetic relationships that emerge from different forms of activism and how to effectively identify what is worth pursuing and what isn’t (i.e. the proponents rather than the issues), like signing petitions on sites like avaaz.org or change.org or donating to charities, as well as marches and such; what really gets the job done and what’s just blowing smoke-and-mirrors? and how can we use noninterference to guide us in the right direction?

For instance, what made Bruce and Co. choose the particular charity they support/advertise on this site?

[Anonymous]

With a bit of what I’ve heard Bruce say (chapter 2 of Tao Te Ching) about places in the universe/etc. where evil is the norm and good is the aberration, I’m beginning to understand that noninterference has more to do with actionable-avoidance of doing something wrong by having the wrong energy behind it rather than doing anything at all.
That is to say, I think what Bruce insinuates with noninterference is that you can do all the right things and have all the right intentions and still be oblivious to the energy being totally wrong; noninterference means having the right energy.
Cause I find it hard to believe that noninterference means “oh yea evil just is and it’s all part of the grand-design”, but rather you can do more evil when you’re unaware of where your energy is at.
I think Bruce means, like anyone, that good is meant to prosper and evil is meant to be transmuted to good, but like what we learn, good and evil aren’t ideas but energies and you have to familiarize yourself with what they are energetically before you can really do anything about it.

[Anonymous]

Hey Cody,

Yeah, paying attention to the energy behind an action is very important. I used to think that the only thing that mattered was the action itself. Slowly, I’m gaining an appreciation for how that’s not true.

The Dalai Lama came to town last year and I went to a teaching of his. One of the points that he raised during the talk was that the action was important but the energy behind the action was also very important.

You could avoid hurting someone because you’re thinking “I don’t want the bad karma involved with hurting someone” or you could do it because you were thinking “I don’t want this person to suffer”. The Dalai Lama pointed out that these were completely different, even though they may appear to be the same on the surface. Acting from a place of compassion was much more powerful than acting from a place of enlightened self interest.

Hope this helps,
Janak

[Anonymous]

Really happy how you put that, Janak

I’ve tended to think that enlightened self interest was better for the cause than compassion, because it sounds seductive enough to any truly disillusioned folk (the downright-evil). But this definitely firms up my commitment that you do the right thing because it’s the right thing, not because you’re afraid of the wrong thing.

Also, kinda off-topic for the thread but since you mentioned HH the Dalai Lama, I got two empowerments from the New Kadmapa Tradition, the first, Amitayus, kinda by accident (really didn’t know who they were, confused it with the Karmapa), the second, Maitreya, because I figured “eh, what the hell”, but it has definitely been niggling at me that I may or may not have given myself a bit of an obstacle in this.
I like to think I’m trying to transmute the energy to bring wholeness to the Tibetan-Buddhist community or some such egotistical-crap, but aside from that I’m genuinely concerned about my karma/etc. (ironic laughter here). What’s the Energy Arts view on this type o’ dilemma?

Thanks as always
Cody

[Anonymous]

Hey Cody,

I’d recommend staying away from the NKT. This is the advice that I was given and it’s worked well for me.

I think the Dalai Lama is one of the best teachers that I’ve had the chance to study with. I also try to keep an eye on anyone that the Dalai Lama recommends.

Janak

[Anonymous]

Well-put, Janak

Definitely a big fan of His Holiness, as well as Robert Thurman.
I really do hope Bruce teaches some of the Dzogchen he’s learning from Lama Wangdor; that guy looks like a riot!

Thanks as always
Cody

[Anonymous]

Do you think it’s worth doing the aforementioned sadhanas?

[Anonymous]

I can see how fine a line there is between activism and enabling; that what can seem like a positive means of doing some good in the world can just turn out to be enabling the very problem it champions to cease, energetically-speaking.

Better to practice noninterference and let people throw around words rather than enable and let people throw around sticks and stones. People can call you what they want but if you play their game it gets very bad indeed.

And yet the opposite always seems to be the truth; that unless you play their games you’ll be collateral-damage, but this only happens if you play their games.
Otherwise, it’s just water-balloons filled with hollow-words and empty-gestures with no harm done, but if you get lulled into the game(s) it’s the pain-train.

I’d rather get lulled into the laziness/effortlessness of noninterference…

[Anonymous]

Just to toss-something in (toss like water-balloons? there is the question of not being sure what will happen next (short, or long, term)… the unexpected (waves- turbulence emerging from combining intersects)…
but also recall the Taoist stories: “Who can say what is good and what is bad?”

(that one- farmer had horses run away, eek, but then they came back with a herd of wild-horses, ahh, then oldest-son tried to train horses and broke legs, eek, then army arrived to “conscript” and didn’t “take him” per injury… and so on..)

But even more- good for who? one group of people? (two sides to the “obvious” conflict.. but many “other-sides” affected..) but Taoism ISN”T anthropo-centric.. seen from a perspective wider-longer (non-human- from distant future.. ) let alone from Mind of Man, vs from the Mind of Tao…?

Is it Wu So Hweih (not sure how to spell that .. or is it Yo So Hweih? (if you are aware if that?) .

---

and in terms of non-interference, non-action (wu-wei) doesn’t necessarily mean ‘sitting on the side-line’… -recall the Taoist emphasis, meditation, healing, but also Martial-Arts.. (the Art of War) ….

I come to see a bit more of the intensity of action- like riding a WhiteWaterRiverRafting.. flying down the river, and yet relative to the “water” nearby- hardly moving (=effort?).. or even more, Windsurfing.. “Lean-back” and the wind… pushes… sailing fwd (movement not from “efforting” but holding the sail to the wind, and keeping balance is not ‘no-effort’ .but isn’t pushing- just KeepingAligned).
just a thought — cheers

[Anonymous]

I wanna believe like everyone else that it’s all about action but I think it is more about the energy behind it and what really impels you to do it.
I think alot of activism is just psychic vampirism and despite the actionable “good” that is done, it might carry a much higher you so hui ( price-tag, energy-wise, for the activists. And though it is true, how Bruce put it, that anything you so hui is rendered wu so hui by the march of time or the grand schema, but it still clogs-up the natural flow.
Who’s to say what good is done when the horse leaves the barn in terms of the Nepalese earthquake? What wild horses are brought home with that lost? When a woman is raped in a third-world country, who’s to say what greater tragedy they are draft-dodging?
Our anthropocentric view makes it impossible to see the Taoist holism and I feel a great deal of activism gets in the way of doing any real-good that is as effortless as, to paraphrase your analogy, holding a kite in the breeze.

[Anonymous]

Liked this quote from Paul Cavel about the philosophy of Tai Chi:
“From a Buddhist perspective, you would never initiate any type of violence, but it is acceptable to defend yourself. Nothing would happen if the force didn’t arrive in the first place and, in this way, you can remain karmically clean in any kind of conflict.”
I’ve always been pretty moronically a martyr, but this really helps me see things clearly.
Along with what he says about the philosophy of Bagua:
“…a foundation of walking in a circle and changing direction—not necessarily to counter an incoming force and generate a reaction, but rather to catch the universal flow. That said, if a bagua stylist finds himself in a potentially aggressive situation, he immediately begins to walk and, once in the flow, can respond—whether that is to take the initiative and make the first move, or mould to any incoming force and defend himself. There isn’t any complacency or lying in wait!”

This has me jonesing for Bagua!

[Anonymous]

I figured I’d put this thought under here: isn’t how we use and view money an elaborate sublimation for how we use and perceive qi?

To me it says alot about the Greek debt-crisis.
In many ways the Greeks are more life-loving than the EU-as-an-entity/ideal, I see Greece as being more responsible/natural with their qi than the EU. I see the EU as being akin to an energetic-aspirant/practitioner who is unhealthily packing-qi to the detriment of their overall system and body, not just crippling a lively-organ (aka Greece). Maybe I’m just under the influence of rose-colored glasses, but most times capitalism tends to look more like packing-qi unhealthily than an increase in qi-circulation and natural qi development.

[Anonymous]

As per what I’ve read/heard Bruce say about how Buddhists have, in the past, gone to Taoists to fix their broken systems /bodies from at-all-costs enlightenment-methods, it makes me think that things like the NKT/Shugden-folk or the violent Buddhists of Sri Lanka are a karmic result of this ends-justifies-the-means approach (i.e. a rebellious current that mirrors counterintuitive/dangerous tactics, or like a kid acting-out from being over-parented).
At the risk of sounding foolish, and with pompous aplomb, I for one would love to see the Dalai Lama doing qigong or tai chi and inspiring his followers and Sangha alike to do the same to hone their meditative powers more efficaciously. I can only imagine the potency of their altruistic efforts with fully functioning energetic systems from such Taoist practices! Also, it’s a way to be subversive against the Chinese regime; taking something of theirs and making it work for you…hmm, or, cooperative? Whatever works best, I s’ppose

[Author]

Posts