a Blocking-Chasm (what stops progress, vs what are ‘other areas to work-on’) -a missing step in BGM info(?)

[Anonymous]

I just created a post in the “General-Discussion” area of this forum called “
Recognition where an instruction has a blocking-chasm (what stops progress, vs other areas to work-on)”
which specifically relates to aspects in the BaguaMasteryProgram (BGM), ie all the CentralChannel work described, seemly blocked as there is a comment about how A) the SideChannels needing to be worked first & that SideChannel work won’t (can’t?) be described in written form, as CentralChannel work seemingly can be… (more specifically:
“The many ways of working with the left and right channels require the direct instruction and supervision of a master for several reasons. Relatively speaking, it is much easier to open these channels than to keep them balanced.”
and
” “if the left and right channels are inappropriately balanced, there can be problems that result in physical, energetic, emotional, mental and spiritual dysfunctions. All of this can be avoided in a true master’s presence.””

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If anyone here might be interested in that post, as others may not have worked through this material, and yet whether one works the BGM system of “steps” or not, the same issues of “before&after” and how different skills link up (which are related-developments of prior, vs fully independent skills -even if they are later linked up in “practice” expression-via-a-certain-Form… yet still they can be mixed and matched (just as lengthen-out, while Closing, and lengthen-out while twisting-in…. (or reverse lengthen-in while twisting-out, as well as the usual in-in, or out-out) -thus KaiHe can be mixed in there as well, Twist-in-lengthen-out- while Closing (then Twist-in-lengthen-in, while Opening) etc.. as well as Twist (in or out (while directing from front or back of palm), and twist without any opening-closing, nor any lengthening involved… (then Open-Close without any ‘related” twist or lengthening etc).

This then allows later mixing and matching (as Bruce had mentioned in the past how if you mix them before they are fully distinct you become locked- and you are blocked from turning it over to the Hsin-heartmind intent (when/if that is awakened and involved)… so that “it” can then mix&match and flow in the expression…

Thus in the above- three skills (KaiHe, Turn-twist, & Lengthening) each have dependent steps, but those three are separate from the others.. (vs the CentralChannel work- at least the E-channel aspect- being dependent upon SideChannel work- physical& Echannel.. which isn’t in the BGM program)… what else might be like this? what implications could this give about other parts of the program?

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another quote, from the BGM written materials, that I find impressive is:

…………..
“Holding the single palm change posture while Walking the Circle Focuses&Develops the chi of the body-mind&spirit more than any other independent single technique in the world of Taoist chi arts.”
“In spiritual traditions, the SPC itself is the main practice within which everything needed for chi development is present. The SPC, in conjunction with sitting Taoist meditation, is all that is needed to develop a human being’s mind and spiritual essence to arrive at what is often referred to in the East as “enlightenment.””
………………….
Thus “the SPC (SinglePalmChange) is all that is needed” -along with sitting.. (as sit, as walked, and as walk do as did as sit)….
(so not even the energies, or other aspects, of the other palm changes- in terms of energetic and Shen-gong ~enlightenment.. even if physical movement, and interest- as mentioned in the video:
from 12_29 Bringing the Etheric Field into the Central Channel (how Liu taught Bruce bagua) (why not 64? all in Single? then why not just teach one? -his reason for the 8 palms)

Thus the other energies covered in the movements of the “other” palm changes (2-8, the 6 after single&double), just as containers to hold different concepts, vs all just being layered within the SPC movement, instead given a number of boxes.. or other reasons to layout in this way? (as there seems to be something to the different palm change movements, in the same way that in the EnergyPostures material Bruce mentions that in the Monastic tradition that 200 postures were held statically and walked, each with variations.. (-so how different each of the 200 to not be considered a variation of another.) And that each of the postures held directly created and sustained a state of energy&mind, thus just holding a posture creates a mind-state and access-pts just like seated-meditation can target and open-up.. (even down to the karmic&essence levels of mind/soul, just from a certain E-posture shape)… thus a connected flow of Epostures creates a certain state of mind…(?)

—and yet once that is touched, how to evoke-trigger than anchor (to use two quite different term-concepts) within the SPC posture and walking, as well as the change.. linked and supported by that one shape (altered and adjusted by the “chi” not by “normal intent” as Bruce mentions in the course, ie the meditation-audios related)…. is there then something that the “other palms changes” can still do that the SPC walking shape would not?

… as well as how to work beyond the SideChannels to not just open-activate-awaken the Side(L&R) Echannels, but balance them, to then work with the CentralChannel.. as mentioned above……?

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you are struggling with several concepts and how they fit together. You are also starting to tweak to how some of Bruce’s statement seem contradictory or incomplete and struggling with how to reconcile their meaning.

The video you mention is particularly confusing Module 12 video 29, Bringing the Etheric Field into the Central Channel (how Liu taught Bruce bagua). There is a lot of material on that video and Bruce is actually describing how he didn’t get it all at once either.

My comment is that the Wind palm material isn’t learned on the first pass. That’s the martial arts stuff. The monastic stuff is more advanced. In my opinion all of the work with the etheric field that he describes is only understood after the central channel is understood. Then the Wind Palm is a particular way you organize your chi.

Notice almost the last sentence of the video – he says he is going out and going into the central channel simultaneously. One side is controlling the in and the other is controlling the out. That’s not learned for a very long time and Bruce even says that many of Dong’s students couldn’t do it.

I’ll add that not only is the left and right sides of the body doing opposites. The left and right channels in each arm and each leg and the torso and the sides of the head and the front and back are doing the same thing simultaneously. I wonder if Bruce would agree.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate your response, there are a number of issues involved, I’d agree. So as you wrote:

<> (indeed to me, the monastic stuff is my real focus- its all there isl)

<>
My point in the original-post was that the CentralChannel instructions (in the BGM) follow work with the SideChannels (per his statements, which I quoted above), and there are no SideChannel instructions in the BGM (as he says no cookiecutter steps can be given)…

The Wind palm does have an interesting aspect : staring out both in, and then both out (the first criss-cross-move, as spin) and then one-out(s), and the other-in(s) simul.. and they switch… till the static position where in fluxes in&out each-both-either switching per the systems response to the energy. (feeling it pulled and changed into the circle’s center.. as well as along the direction, and behind where you stepped from- along the curve-circle…
and then the whole sphere-back, like a turtle-shell) – all seem to point to a central-“place”..
***********
interesting what is embedded in these movements… (just going back to the first instructions- the writing of the Epostures, and of the SPC Warmup.)
let alone incorporating each of the energetic aspects into basic walking, and even the Palm-strike warmup.. feel the Winds as the Palms-switch.. or drill, or cut.. as “cut” feel the thunder- not just where “touch” but in field, and where the edge of field touches..

(if layer in all the palmchange energies, like you mention about Wind, as well as from Lake, Fire-Li, Water-Kan… etc. all into something simple like one of the integration warm-ups…… gives a sharp focus to wire-in them all at once.)

[Anonymous]

This helps a lot. It took me a long time to understand what the side channels were and what they were supposed to do. Right up until the Lake Palm which Bruce only recently taught, Bruce has been adding pieces to the puzzle.

IMO the physical safety issue is regarding how the sides pull on the spine and spinal cord. The deeper you go into this the stronger and more direct they become and the legs jump the forces by an order of magnitude as compared to the arms.

This gets worse because the side channels start to eventually open up the organs and glands. So, first you are potentially getting all of the suppressed emotions and emotional trauma stirred up and then potentially hyper charging them by opening up the glands. If you aren’t inherently balanced that’s the equivalent of throwing gasoline on an already dangerously large fire.

That said, the material is there, but it is peppered all over the place throughout the videos.

P.S. I liked how you broke down the Wind Palm. There is a lot going on under the skin and it only gets more interesting.

[Anonymous]

BTW, This is one way to hide something right out in the open. You can teach and teach and teach detail after detail after detail by leaving out a critical piece of the progression. Practically no one will ever connect the dots. They will get better incrementally and slowly, but never get the deeper meaning because everything is so dampened without those critical pieces. Ironically it is for their own good.

[Anonymous]

In terms of the “Wind palm” reference- that is all in the SPC.. (and more I’m seeing is actually in there- this thread was really about seeing not just parts, but how they relate, and then to sense-recognize the underlying “Principle” acting- which can’t be directly stated,, in that use of that term, but getting a sense of principle, then one sees-understanding (Understanding-jin) other unseen aspects and how bits relate together)…
in the 6 parts of the SPC (the first 4 relate to the Si Xiang…, and show up in all the palm change, albeit in different forms/shapes.. but the underlying aspect- here- is there in the SPC, so what is added in the “Other Palm Changes” added and not just changed….)

1) all goes in, 2) all goes out, – then the palm change-step-through- 3) one in (rear- suspended ft-leg), as the other out (lead–supporting ft-leg), then 4) one-in (again the rear-ft-leg, now supporting, and switched per step- RL flip.. quality of E, not just phy.. as how can “Do the SPC seated” not moving…?), which the other out (lead-ft-leg again, now reaching-suspended, per switch)…. then 5) and 6)

(above may seem obvious, but perhaps of use to some, and seeing what is there from the first presentation, then how are later “shapes” adding (like Wind is more than this, or just using this structure…) -also I’ve found a hint in how the first 4 steps are the same structure in each of the palms (which different shape-forms ~Xing-Yi), and yet..
the last two (5&6) are the same in all (in Bruce-Liu’s palms)… such that 5&6 have the “same” shape-form as well as function in all….

then there seems to be something much-more to those aspects (beyond just the completion-balancing of the first change moves.. as they are similar to, but seem quite different from the Kai&He as in the Walking-steps.. perhaps-just in those two movement-qualities there is alot to found: how to do not just in the outward form, but as a whole-being expression, in seated-stillness…

(just as Peng, can be a movement, or even radiate from a part of body, like arm, but can be whole-being expression as a “here I am” becoming more present-outward, as balanced by An’s settled-inward- “here I am” self-stability.. thus not related to movement, then when take that essence and put one on one arm, and the other on the other arm (or even front and back of one hand or arm)… with else having little-none involvement. -just as an outward beginning of how the energies are used…
then the 5&6 movement-energy-qualities.. more than just an in or out, even a “side-to-side”.. just as Peng and An are not just contrasting Out vs In, even if they do switch directional-flows, they have a different quality-essence.. so to, each of the palm change aspects, once one has worked with threading in &/or out…

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I’m not sure if you might totally-disagree with what I wrote previously, or just were looking/skimming to read if it says what you’ve thought before, perhaps we’ve different focuses (I don’t mean to reiterate, but only once more mention, in case it was missed and of any interest- if we just have different interests, I understand).. my view is that moving the joints (from the outside) is different from “physically” moving the joints (from inside).. which is different from Pulsing (which goes to activating the E-gate, which may or may not affect the tissue.. as you mentioned encountering in your work with Lake palm).. then there is an underlying “thing” that unifies and drives each of the Egates (less or more, as develops) so they link up

-the first 2 (physically moving the joint from outside, or from inside it) I’d relate to moving the side-tubes in the torso, usually accessed via Armpits, middrifts, kwa, etc (as I referenced already in this thread original-post, and reply), but the contact to the “pulsing Egate”(in jts) parallels to the pulsing Egates of side-channels).. but this isn’t just the torso, but the echannels (which are in all the bones, and the liang-I aspects of all the parts.. “the side channels are what we sit on&in as one stands”)..
-this is what Bruce seems to mention he hasn’t taught in BGM (although it seems from your post you think he mistakenly wrote that, or perhaps he is tricking/misleading people by saying its not there, but you think it is.. perhaps.. part of the pt I wrote the original post here).
-in the same way that whole body pulsing (isn’t just jts, nor is many parts, jumping attn here and there, but needs to come from an underlying pt that drives them all as a whole.. is the pockets, organs, spine, and eth-field.. ‘mind’…).. in that same way, side-channel(s) isn’t just moving the parts in the torso… (as it embodies the deeper aspects of “us” .. the substance of the Hsin? which our thoughts-awareness result from, not our thoughts-awareness personality is beyond… (let alone the Central Channel- as the energy of.. anyway, again I’m just rewriting what I wrote in the first post… Marriage of Heaven and Earth, as touched on in the last chapters in Bruce’s Tao-sexual-med bk)…..

… again, could just be a different focus-interest, I’m not saying-implying a physical movement focus is missing anything (at all, works great to ground), but nor am I saying that it includes all the aspects presented here, in BGM- which I wanted to explicitly mention, in case any others happen to read these forum-posts and they have an interest in the ‘freaky’ aspects (monastic SPC), as I have always had an interest…
-so indeed the destabliizing upon the spine is an issue.. although the 4 pts being held, while being sung (not ‘relaxed” but released or “Freed of all bindings” which seems to feel “full” like how liquid fills a glass, or a water balloon bounces and fills out), should have been built prior.. and if doing from inside (an internal-art from inside, vs just movements made indirectly from “outside”) then one has awakened and activated those parts, and get them to move (like moving arms-fingers from pulsing, vs fold and bend-move arm-fingers, which may or may-not involve pulsing, but isn’t driven by it…
………..
I just write all this out, as contacting an underlying energetic aspect, let alone being driven-by it, seems to be what this art can hint at, but only if one Twi-mo(s) (to contort the term- self-study, seeking- ie banging one’s head against the wall.. Is it there? so tempting to think, naw, and skip it.. but maybe there is something)….

As Bruce says, in that Spirituality in Martial Arts (video, referenced in original post, a lot in there, it seems you, James, think it is contradictory, which confused me as it seemed clearly laid out to me, but it is layered and complex, or at least not only saying one thing-simply,)… when he studied with Liu, Liu started with Martial-applications of PalmChanges, and then went to the monastic-aspects, and then how those E-aspects change-enable other martial-apps… (Bruce mentions, “he didn’t know what to do with that….” -Liu replies, “That is because you don’t ‘really’ understand the SPC.”… so they more deeply reviewed….) – this being after Bruce had studied Bagua (let alone the internal martial-arts and NeiGung, ChiGong systems, for “a bit”), even with Bai Hua (who was a student of Liu), so assumably some of what Liu might show, Bai Hua might have touched on… still- he saw more…

[ that just being the context from which I’m, personally, interpreting what is offered in BGM. ] — I regret having repeated and written out in above for any reading this who might have caught the ideas in the original-post as well as who listened/reviewed (even took notes) in the videos, like the Spiritual in Martial Arts (how Liu taught), I only wrote-out here to facilitate, and just to try and complete a whole thought. (as I find these arts a great pearl, so just to see if any might be involved in these aspects, now or later)

-so whether the material is there “hidden” and “peppered” about, and his statements to the contrary were a misleading (which I don’t get as being Bruce’s way, but perhaps), or whether what is touched on is the physical movement-aspects.. (and not the channel work itself), which I might be tending towards, as it makes more sense of his statements (I quoted before).
……much as the jts movement are not the “pulsing” (e-gates), and even the pulsings are not contacting, nor “using/acting-from” the Echannels underneath.. … then perhaps his intent was saying the Side-E-Channels, beneath&beyond the pulsings (jts and also include pockets, and thus the armpits-kwa-middrifts, etc.. thus all that is included, thus why i mentioned pulsing being different)

— the Echannel can likewise destabilize (or at least change) the deeper structures (or one’s self?), in the same way as the torso-spine, even though I’d say that is more of a 4pts, sung, linkage, which can be developed back from the initial Epostures-straight-line walking.. unless one’s practice-method, system, was to move beyond that and move more (thus the reference in my original post to foundational support, and how one devels a path/steps, etc).

So just thoughts- which I see as revealing and hinting at the state of mind that Bagua seems to help develop, over time, seeing more of the pieces in a whole (not focusing on this and then on that, but the Subcon opening, and you have room for directly contacting more at once…. thus the whole, and even essence, of what is before one reveals)….

anyway- I find it a tempting struggle to skip back to the surface, vs going deeper and sensing-questioning more, in myself, so perhaps others might be encouraged-supported to likewise and thus not self-short-cut-short-circuit by not seeing where this work really is done (my view, down in the Echannels, and the “Mind” which is below and creating what we sense as mind… what choices are we making, vs just following patterns/routines/programs… )

to be Spontaneous, Natural = to be free… “sung” but not (just) in a phy sense, but in a self-sense, to go “sung”, … -what does that mean? (how literally practiced, yes in a physical walking sense, but I think that changes the “playing field” or at least the materials being used, and What-Who is doing the work (not acting from the “this” personality-space-level, “Who are you?” (or perhaps What, or even Where… are you?)

=========================
anyway- seems alot to list out in a few pages of a post, rather than just practicing, but I think this can form one’s practice (as I mentioned, in original post- so last repetition here- all of this can be embedded in the warm-ups.. and thus when begin just to walk- straight in a static-posture, its all there.. (let alone circle and change)

-I think when one is bringing up issues of Yin&yang (liang-I, before TaiJi), and what is the basis of stillness/emptiness.. how is the Spherical nature (not only the Ball of the Eth-field, its membraneous-liminal-edge being contact-Window with else.. — and each Egate likewise.. then all those are one- inside&outside combine.. “Where there is a Front, there “is” a back.. ” etc….

When bringing up these questions, I think one is stepping-into subjects that need to be grounded earlier.. if one isn’t bringing up above questions, than these issues may be less relevant (or interesting, to one). (The pure Whiskey in a bottle, vs only part of a bottle- thing, that Bruce mentioned in regards to TaiChiChuan lineages.. even more so seems to related to BaguaZhang systems.. or what the subject-matter even is and relates to).

---

Luck all

[Anonymous]

I agree that the central channel work depends on the side channel work being completed first unlike some other aspects of neigung that can stand on their own and then be integrated to gain more depth.

Bruce is consistent on that point and he consistently considers it a safety issue throughout the BMP. He even goes further and states that he has only taught about 25% of the neigung material. I’ve posted about this previously.

IMO, the only way to fill in the gaps is to make some leaps which Bruce has clearly indicated is very dangerous. I chose to connect those dots but I did it based on Bruce’s taught material and spontaneously arising experience that came directly from years of practice.

Most of the descriptions/breakdowns of the palm changes that you describe are looking at them from the perspective of what Bruce called the Bagua phase. There is still the Dragon Bagua phase and the Swimming Dragon phase.

IMO, the demarcation between the Bagua phase and the Dragon Bagua phase is overcoming the nervous system. IMO, this is accomplished by working directly with the bone marrow. Swimming Dragon Bagua which many of Dong’s students never reached requires the central channel which you’ll never get to without a thorough understanding of the bone marrow or the side channels.

But, who knows, I could be wrong.

[Anonymous]

Let’s just assume that you’re correct and you can’t understand the central channel without first understanding the side channels. What are you going to do? How do you plan to train?

I’d also add that I think it is worse than that. If you don’t understand the side channels, you can’t understand the central channel which means you can’t understand “the capacities and all the uses of the body’s lower tantien”, and you can’t understand “the capacities and all the uses of the middle and upper tantiens”, and you can’t understand how to “integrate and connect each of the previous 15 components [neigung] into one, unified energy.”. That’s 5 out of 16 parts of the neigung foundation that are missing. The egates and joints are just one tiny piece. Without some understanding of the lower, middle, and upper tan tiens – you can’t doing anything but Bagua movement with some energy work mixed in. Tai Chi can be done with just the lower tantien not Bagua.

I know how I approached this problem, but how do you plan to train?

[Anonymous]

Hi Taokua, the first generation of Bagua practitioners do not get enough credit for there skills. They had to help each outher research they had a lot of time to pracice.

I have studied with two other Baguazhang masters outside of the BMG. Emei style from Liang Shou Yu starting in 1992, from Yin Fu line. Then currently with a master of the Ma, Gui Bagua also from Yin Fu line. Traditional teachers don’t say much. You do what they say for 6 months or a year. Then another thing is added. The reason is they want you to get the ABC’S before you do the 1 1’s. The neigong energies need to be in your practice. Layer in each component one by one.

Get some visual feedback from a friend and video your progression

Start at the beginning. Do your walking at a 1/4 speed. Check your posture poin by point. Then again video tape it. You tube it and send it to James. He may see somethig to help. It could be your neck is not sitting right. Maybe your not settling the upper chest and letting the weight torso sink into your hips.

Get help. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Caution:
side channel work might be dangerous to your health.

I’ve suffered a right elbow effusion for 4 weeks.
(blood pooled in the elbow joint, causing hemorrhage and swelling from shoulder to fingers, couldn’t move my elbow, couldn’t pick my nose)
(at least it proves that there really is fluid and stuff in a pulsing elbow joint)

It has been idiopathic, no injury or trauma caused this.
I hate to mention this because it is so subjective and there is no proof that bagua caused this in any way.
But it did occur soon after I completed studying all 8 palm changes–and was incorporating the Wind Palm change
into all the other palm changes.

Of course, it could be just due to being old–11/28/40

I’ve been studying the energy arts system for 7 years.
I do standing energy gates work ala Dan Klieman.
And I also have I also been getting live instruction from other bauga experts.

But at the moment I’ve lost any motivation to do any bagua (psychologically).
My body says, oh, oh, don’t do any of that side channel stuff.

I’ve taken several professional acupuncture treatments (with no effect), circulating Qi through the elbow hasn’t worked.
I lost the ability to do self-acupressure on the left side of my body with my right hand.

Finally, my family physician drained the elbow, guided by ultra sound–a lot of nerves, ligaments, tendons, bursa, cartridge in the elbow joint must be avoided. 20 ml of thick blood was drained out of the joint–
and the issue resolved overnight,blood no longer poured into my urine and system.

Even though I am older, I am very fit.
My right arm has always been extremely strong–
football quarterback, defensive linebacker, baseball right-fielder, tennis player,
40 years of wilderness backpacking,
my elbow has always been a very formidable martial weapon,
never with any injury.

After this elbow effusion I can not control my blood clotting times,
they swing from 1 (normal) to 5.7 plus (stroke time).
weekly INR testing.

So now you guys are talking about the relationship between the side channels and the central channel.
I can attest that there is definitely a connection.

Well, the Wind Palm Change greatly involves the shoulder and the elbow. It is very Yang. Bagua is very Yang.

Maybe too Yang for my right elbow and my circulatory system.

My best therapy has been the Yang style Long form–
I do many variations and styles of it.
Of course, Tai Chi is very Yin.
Just what I need.

I guess my only advice is to not overdo it.

Bob

[Anonymous]

Intense, and generous of you to share this experience (I’m glad to hear it seems to be improving.. good luck in that)

…I know what you mean about the “gun-shy” even once it does “recover-fully” .. which can take awhile anyway- lingering weakest-link…

anyway- that type of thing is why I wrote about this in April (and the physical aspects is one thing, and the energetic aspects of the side-channel- another thing.. the “side-channel” not just being a term of sh&Kwa(s).. (the issue was from Bruce’s words in the course.. and how many would cobble something together.. just to bring it up for poss discussion)
-there wasn’t much interest, beyond the idea of just try-stuff and it will work out, ie to experiment.. (which I don’t think is wise-safe, or even needed, as the info is in GodsPlaying… etc. -addl training needed- but not a cobble)
yet your experience/injury seems to evidence that trial&error isn’t quite the way to re-invent the wheel (as even your “injury” wasn’t too bad, as it could have been).

some missteps can take many yrs to reset from.. a shaky structure can not only destabilize, but even collapse the layers below, even crack your foundation….
…………
a big issue (primary and prelim to all this else- actually embedded in the “warmups” let alone the initial walking, is balancing (L&R sides, as well as top and bottom, creating the sphere.. espec in bagua.. but the same in TaiChichuan- make the ball, no protrusions, no hollows ie uneveness from “centre”)
(touched on it Marriage of H&E, but the OldYang seemed to really emphasize this in the training circle he did on it).

[a curious thought occurs- can you identify what the quality is in how you were doing the Bagua (that you think perhaps might have injured- I salute your hesitating assuming, as so many would)… but what is the quality that is not in your Tai Chi practice, that you sense (even subcon) that you would if you did Bagua.. thus your shying back from.. ?

[Anonymous]

Hi

I was thinking of your questions of the right channel and left channel. It confuses to many things. Don’t worry about it. Look at the bigger picture. Why are we doing Bagua in the first place? If you have a errors in technique you will find this error occurs in your circle walking.

Why circle walk? The main effect is to bring full circulation of blood and qi to all parts of the body and strengthen the tendons and ligaments throughout the body.

Another effect is to connect all the ligaments, tendons and soft tissue from the bottom of your feet through the body to where they connect to the skull. If you have an error in technique you will find the error occurs in your circle walking and it will self correct once you fix your circle walking. Circle walking is designed so that at no point in the process do you lose whole body power, thus you build whole body power when you circle walk. There is no difference in feeling in circle walking and any other move.

I’m quoting advise of one of my bagua teachers. – Andrea Falk.

Paul Pitzel
Vancouver, Canada

[Anonymous]

Thanks Taokua,

I misspoke by referring to the Wind Palm change;
I meant Lake Palm Change.

It was the big opposing circles with arms going behind the head and back,
which is not found in Tai Chi.
I had trained my left arm movement first,
then the right,
and I had just begun to combine the two…
and apply Lake into the other Palm changes as well.
I did feel a click in my right shoulder develop,
which I foolishly ignored.

Most of this is pure conjecture.
But there is no conjecture that I blew out my right elbow.

Now it would be very dangerous to do the Thunder Palm change–
with the right arm going from yang to yin instantaneously.

My Doctor later thought that my right teres minor muscle (connecting scapula and humerous) had also hemorrhaged due to a defect in my blood coagulation system
(I have taken generic warfarin for 5 years–I switched to brand name coumadin and adjusted the dosages–Friday I’ll retest my blood clotting times).

Anyway, yesterday at Tai Chi Retreat in B.C. Canada the group was doing “Daoyin” Qigong and “blood and yin” work, which I was able to do (without fully extending my right arm).
There really is blood and fluids and energy in your joints.

Early this morning I did the Yang Long Form on the shores of Kootenay Lake and for the first time in a long time did the Lake Palm Change.
However, by 10 am my “Qi tank” was empty.

No way can I do Push Hands or other partner work.

My teacher is furious with me.
So I’m hiding out until this evening.

I’m exaggerating some of this to gain sympathy–
it helps to see how frail we can be.

Best regards

[Anonymous]

Great share (I appreciate).. -good luck on your testing/healing, recovering (upgrading), I hope the blood-test goes well, fri and ongoing.. rough stuff (but part of the journey one is on, perhaps).

I resonate with what you wrote at the end:

>>>No way can I do Push Hands or other partner work.
My teacher is furious with me.
So I’m hiding out until this evening.>>>

Uh Oh .. that relates.. (some teachers/trainings are based-on brushing that edge, but not going beyond- especially in an intensive.. thus triggering recovery mode… seeking to operate solidly in the 70% mode… while other teachers/trainings might be intending to push and be ok crashing.. -less sustainable, but a “safe place” to determine that limit? -different games, as I mention below.. which relates to the (channel-work, and deeper-flow, then side-channels, then finally, after each of the prior was completed, the central-channel), how/method/style, let alone the subtleties…
* I hope above paragraph makes sense, and relates, a distinction I don’t often see out there..(clearly expressed, even if tacitly implied).

===================
rather than parse out and post in different clumps or subjects, I tend to see/think and thus write a whole concept-cluster, so I hope a couple might be ok with length (pretend it is a “Short chapter” in a book.. wouldn’t be much of an article.. but in a forum, this length is called too-long.. but if this isn’t lost in the tide-of-time, it might be mined now (or later), mostly I hope this might inspire the self-inquiry and improvement focus (and care of what one is actually doing, in one’s practice, and “IF” internal-gung-fu power, as a distinct thing from other types of “power” as a distilled-essence thickened and condensed-energy-vib…. how does one do that? and what concerns might there be?)

[ The issue of a “click” (or other warning-signals ignored, let alone if one did hear and take heed.. is one thing at phy-level.. but setting up certain “swirls” in one’s “head-space”.. can start to build in a strange way, there is an unsettling-confusion, but can be unclear, or perhaps even powerful… and it can start to move on its own… then it fades from awareness.. and you find that day, next day.. you feel a bit off.. but next practice you estab such a “swirl” again.. and it builds- may be “contextualized-imterpreted” as power, feels a bit “intense” but no-pain, no-gain.. and it builds each time.. gee this is going somewhere .. (by the time one realizes how it is stirring up subcon contents, as well as Making on visible on subtle-levels.. and how events-circumstances are distorted.. too late unless you can tune in to what that change is.. a spin set up in a part of “you” that you are unaware of, so how stop/change it? .. need to know to look-there…)

(as an example) –others, see the warning chapter in Bruce Opening the Energy Gates of your Body (nearly worth the whole book just for those few pages, perhaps).. some distortions may ease if stop doing “wrong practice”.. other keep going even if you stop, and others will continue and build and build… (like a snowball tipped to roll down a hill, accels until- wham… perhaps rare one would hit the accidental “right” /wrong combo.. but such leverage, perhaps worth research to ensure not do, even if might be hard to do on accident (and some “well-known” systems teach methods that ‘nearly’ do these short-out-wirings.. just they are missing actually triggering tapping some source-flow or such.. if one is “plugged-in” when you read and try it.. wow, something happens… (and then…)

……………
something I find important, and talked with those instructing in the past, is the following (seems many might start with the same viewpt, but I found that isn’t the case, and it can change all else -details..

(the issue of whether this “stuff” (this type of practice, is to develop, soothe, or to “utilize” ie to push… all three of those changes the whole context..

---

for example, there is a video on YT of an interview-feature of one teacher Bruce studied with, Hung I Hsiang, where he shows different subjects he taught- in his system Bagua was immed level, and a student does some moderate walking and changes.. and after a few minutes is exhausted (and actually says it requires a high chi level to do), not hard breathing or muscles but from what he was doing inside…
contrast to other ways of doing, and people may move much faster and more vigorously and yet end warmed up and not drained-low on E.. (different system-contexts, a methodology-structure/way).
(I found that comment on above Hung I Hsiang video interesting as at the time I saw it, a while back, I hadn’t heard that distinction before).. in case any other find of interest…

That last relates to your line about —

<<>>

(some ways of practicing seem to not “need much qi” to do and perhaps soothe and perhaps build.. while others- often nearly the same practice, but slightly changed- require alot of qi “in the tank” to do at all (and may, or may not, use that qi up.. like invested funds– which may gain a return, perhaps that day.. perhaps tie up the energy ~money for a long time, and then ‘later’ a gain…

(building a foundation, uses/invests- deposits E into each day (not storing in the bank, but using up.. like say planting a seed, that might grow like in bone work, or core-channel development of linkages, VS storing in a center, like creating a Dan to put in dan tien… which is then available that day ~systemically, vs it being gone-used), more E is used-up the next, and the next.. and only months later then see a return.. vs a gain is experienced each day..

…..
>>>I’m exaggerating some of this to gain sympathy–
it helps to see how frail we can be.<<<

‘Hear, here…”

A big issue I have with the current pop-culture of this subject is my understanding that a Strain/congestion (whether pulling a muscle, overdoing the nerves- resulting in a jangle-jumpy state, or overheating chi.. often misinterpreted as blood-pooling.. say in the brain or spine, or a pocket-cavity.. and not “chi” related– all being over-doing, and perhaps an ouch.. but rest, especially with some gentle movement to encourage circulation= recovery) vs “injury” (which is defined as needs to be fixed to recover..

ie a whacked bone can just bruise, even deep, or even crack the bone.. but if it breaks so the periosteum tears- let alone part of the bone sticks out of the skin… needs to be reset or never the same… likewise a joint, wrench or torque-tweak, even bad swelling, but can heal and deal with inflammation.. etc.. but if “Dislocate”.. or change the pressure-center of the Connective-tissue and fluids.. the parts reorient.. need fix that, or won’t ever be right….

chi, or even mind-stuff flow, likewise… (often something is implied to be in the second category, and the advice it as-if the first category:: take it easy and it will be fine.. and if not? but the common-advice, isn’t responsible, if wrong (shrug).. -especially in what is termed “Kundalini syndrome” or chi-sickness.. (again, did “too much” = over do, ouch, and body reacts,
—-
even if sitting, stand/laying down, doing little, and no physical strain (also if walking, aligned and smoothly twisting, grow-shrink, not as an automatic-pattern, not as a motion, but fluidic-wave of mind, taichi-space continuous stillpt).. thus watch, even do, and it doesn’t feel like much.. and thus ouch, and so call it “messed up your chi-E” but could subtly pull-something on phy-lvl (related to nerves or chi or mind-stuff), or even on level not, directly, connected to phy… but it is still just “ouch”..
-but if [ Zou huo ru mo (走火入魔), I just searched for spelling- though Bruce seems to pronounce it Zou Hou Lo Mo, “Fire goes to the devil”.. “the burning derangement” ]….. than if stop all practice, (not the same as “chi congestion” or distortion of overuse, or intended imbalance, that the system may rebalance, even if TCM or phy-rehab could fix-faster.. ie if can self-heal, vs need intervention.)
or
if raise Kunda, not prep practice, but the actual.. and it is “off”.. if just stop practicing (ie as often recommended, just let it settle and all with be fine…) .. it will get worse and worse (like a compound-fracture, or ruptured-joint capsule, or other internal-bleeding-infection.. etc…)

—- yet a way to have little chance of this derangement, is to not be working at a deep level..
(if work deep level, need guidance, as well as working “Under the hood” one can over-clock your system- push the limits of the government-limit, let alone change what is possible.. but need to know what you are doing?)

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Just as a reference- Video 11 42 (twisting from the Tan Tien).. has such cautions..

(ie around the 1/3 pt.. twist from centre, vs “from” ft, and vs ft and centre catalyzing each other.. like how he has taught the 5 energies and int’l organ work, passing-along the pulse like a relay-race, vs directed through-from one as you go around..
which is a whole different thing from 2 (or more.. all 6?) each catalyzing the other in return, not just both together, but a fdbk-amplification… adds not just greater power, but a whole different way of functioning, but so easy to F-up…… like “Standing” in Spiraling-E,, let alone Spiral-Up, jump-whooshes as walk… like moving a flame near some gunpowder.. at any point can go off… so dramatic-possibilities.. but so easy to veer in to danger.. (just as an example)…

not merely specifically twisting (all the cautions about lineages, and tested methods, vs a theory- which I think should be called a hypothesis, as a theory is something tested/confirmed, but quibble…
…………
the warning of those that teach based-on “what I found, in my experience” ~ compare to Stock Market.. (Bruce’s ex in the above video-audio)

as- from that video-audio… many write about:
“Try what I did…. This is what I found…” (outlier? was writer/teach lucky? .. let alone self-misleading… the selection-sorting of random-walk, especially in a game of disproportionate returns..
let alone how often people don’t quite recall what they did, exactly.. and those with a talent or just “got-it”.. did it X, and teach it that way.. missing something to those learning from…

(such missteps, as Bruce has mentioned in the past, may not show up for a long-time down stream.. years even.. and even be a glass-ceiling, or a shaky-sandy foundation that seemed stable, and let crumbles… -a mix of both- or trade-offs of skill and yet health issues, mental/nervous strain.. etc…..)

[luck to James, in case you read this, your thought to write and present material differently than you have been on this forum, as so often on prior forum-posts you wrote you weren’t writing for anyone to read-understand, but just as a record for yourself.. the jump to integrating and then passing-along a whole-understanding to others.. is a virtuous ordeal… I just hope you might be consider some of the points I wrote of.. not that you wouldn’t, just so many other writers/Vloggers/teachers of this subject may not.. and I too ponder how to pass-along, someday, to sustain this fascinating subject…
so luck to you in that.. and others that might also consider -re-presenting in book/video or live-classes… -I don’t know if people like Jess or Issac, or other Earts cert instructors might read this and have thoughts on this?]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A bit of a longer post.. but issues I find quite important, and relate to the issue of passing along what one learns (as in re-presenting.. which is a whole different thing from re-phrasing.. or even syncretically- synthesizing… and thinking to teach-present a new understanding.. ) -which I salute in intent, but I think has bigger issues behind it (and thus a point of my originally posting this point, that is directly out of the BGM, that the Side-channel info isn’t presented, as Bruce writes in the program, that it isn’t.. and this shows up in the warmups, let alone stepping.. -let alone the more dynamic palm-changes..
………………………………………
To Robert- your clarification/correction of Lake (vs Wind) makes sense

The biggest ouch I had, was working upon Lake and Double-palm a while back.. working on the later part of the Double-palm the turn around after the double palm push-slap-strike.. which rotates on one-leg “as” drop and wraps arm behind and arcs it down-up-fwd… anyway- that part (with relating it to the Lake flow) from a training where Bruce emphasized that, and taught the Chun Energy (not just release, and sung, free momentum & heaviness, and not even An ~taichi energy, down-drop, but a connect to the whole field-up-down which sand-bag drops, but further sort of drives it down)..
with that turn and drop, thus engages a drilling type energy -made feel like Energyfield & air wrapped/squeezed as turn and yanked down with a surge.. ended up making a few hunches and getting it, but feeling ok..

went to sleep .. woke-up having pulled something from foot-up leg- along spine to head, wrapped and twisted.. couldn’t walk (or breath) well for over 6 days.. let alone sit, or even lie-down, as couldn’t fully straighten-leg, needed to be partly bent, and hip was tight.. and it let it fall so muscle caught it, spasms and spine jolted as pulled… but couldn’t position to rest it, even with pillows propping.. (gave time to ponder.. even if was difficult)…

I gained insights on how to practice, but that didn’t change my organization/upgrade-my-system, as it wasn’t risking an “injury” (as that was a self-recovery, vs a “need-to-be-fixed”.. (just as a contrast for ex)

I did encounter one of the later when I did Spiraling-E body retreat.. and luckily Acu-treatment, nice John and Angie, as well a Teri assisting, and still many months of adjustment as my eyes burned and insides “churned”… and that was just stand and think a certain way.. but I become curious and cautious after that….

I want to be sure, in myself, and ‘any’ I teach, to develop “Actual” internal-ability (not just external tricks, or even subtle- structure gung-fu, but internal-E jin).. but more so “Do no harm…” (and ensure they don’t learn in such a way, that they might turn around and teach others themselves- even yrs later, such that those students are harmed.. students of your students, are still under your responsibility? (imagine the quoted Native American concept of “considering the affects, seven generations downstream.”
……………………………………….
Above taps in to what I was thinking/experiencing recently (and I’ve written of in the past, in different ways)-

it depends upon what “game you are playing” (your purpose, of the action, in the set of other actions in a practice session, over time- results, how you wish to express and relate changes in your “other life” .. and most of all- where/why is this going? that style of your path…
…………..
I found these issues can make an identical set of techniques and even the distinctions of how are they are done (inside as well as the -less important, yet still a containing-vessel- outside aspects/actions/qualities)…

let alone if there are “little differences” that make a big difference. (conversely- other that may be seeking the same purposes of each action within a practice, let alone the overall practice, and how it fits-shows up, soon and over the long-term, even if there practices are ‘very’ different…. may be much-more on the Same-Page.

(apparently I connected something to inspire a response- maybe could be related to those that might be on the same-page as I, and those on a different-same-page, might understand and relate to what they are doing…)
…………….
[most of all, to realize, if (usually- in my exper) within us, there are different thoughts that each have different ‘games’ that we are playing, and why shift and jump between them.. perhaps even during a single action (technique or set).. the entire context and logic flipping.. just like moving, or sitting, with a distracted/gapping-out mind… becoming of one-mind.. without fixation or “tension”/contraction/blockage in the mental, chi or physical.. Thus able to change-freely (as appropriate)…
…..
” In bagua, you move… -that statement is no less profound than: the entire universe is- always- in motion. ” (from the BGM program)

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