alignment for sitting meditation

[Anonymous]

good day,

what is the recommended alignment for sitting meditation in the taoist tradition.
many, many, many years of zazan, shamatha and vipassiana on the cushion and i just noticed when sitting on a cushion, or a bench for that mater, your but is pushed back which is the exact opposite of the standing alignment bruce teaches. pushed back but does position you onto your sit bones and at the same time encourages the knees to the floor, which gives you a nice solid triangle of support, which is really helpful when doing long sits.

so what is the recommended alignment for long sits in the taoist tradition?

please advise…

cheers,

daniel

[Anonymous]

As I remember, there’s a good bit on that in Bruce’s book “Relaxing into Your Being” (or the second volume “Great Stillness”), and with the stuff Bruce teaches it’s about the 70% principle and maintaining a relaxed position that keeps things open and flowing.

[Anonymous]

yeah, relaxed position, however i think there is more to it than that. once you have the alignment, i think you can relax into that position, but learning alignment means for me personally, break ing some old alignment habits. i have both the books and will look a little deeper into them

thanks

daniel

[Anonymous]

Maybe doing standing meditation might be better then?
If you gotta break some physical-habits that are no bueno, standing meditation is a charm.
Also, maybe the problem is long-sittings; following the 70% guideline is more about taking it easy.
Most times 20-30 minutes a day can be more than enough, even necessitating skipping alternate days.
If you’ve been kicking your body’s ass but still have the meditation-bug, do it standing and give your body the love it deserves!
If you’ve got Bruce’s Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body book, it gives all the posture and such, but, he also pretty well outlined it in the qigong section of this training circle…sitting in a sedan chair he called it; face in chest, chest in belly, belly in spine, spine in legs.
Give that a go and get your meditation on with a vengeance!

[Anonymous]

I also am looking for the proper alignment when sitting. Most of the material that I have gone through of Bruce’s only mentions sitting in a chair, not on the floor. But what are the Taoist postures for sitting on a floor or on a large stone? What are the proper alignments? Or are there any such postures for this that are Taoist?

I was once advised by someone to sit on a pillow when sitting on the floor for meditation. That the pillow would help with alignments.

[Anonymous]

Hey Christopher,

I think the first alignment for seated meditation is “Be comfortable”. At the beginning, just try to sit in the most comfortable way that you can. One way to measure how comfortable you are is to try to answer the question “How long can I sit for before I want to get up?”

Once you do that, you can start to adapt the basic alignments that are taught in Tai Chi and Chi Gung.

• Keep your spine straight
• Keep the occiput open and the head raised
• Keep your midrift open
• Relax the shoulders
• Keep your hips open
• Keep your armpits open
• etc

I think Bruce goes into more detail in the Taoist Meditation Circle mp3s

Hope this helps,
Janak

[Anonymous]

that all makes sense, however after years of sitting on a meditation cushion i just noticed my hips roll forward and my but goes back, which is the exact opposite of tai chi or standing alignment, sit on a cushion bringing your knees to the ground while in lotus or half lotus for stability and you will know what i am talking about, a meditation bench provides the same results. it will tip your hips forward and but back…
???

[Anonymous]

I think I know what you mean- mostly (from my perspective) two issues relate- sitting in those positions, one “can” slump.. but it doesn’t tip you that way.. only if you allow it (just as one could say sitting in a chair, or leaning against the wall, makes one’s back and thus hips back,.. as lean)..
if balanced upon sit-bones- the spine stacks, like a pile of plates stacked up [as I sat on a “knee-chair” for yrs growing up.. it wasn’t a med-bench on the floor, which tilts the lower legs/below knees more.. but still is feet under seat, knees downward from seat.. easy to lean- but if adjust right… ]
Also -more related to next-pt,.. but also that the cushion or bench may not be comfortable on the sit-bones.. if hard, then if align the pelvic bones under, you can feel the bite.. vs roll-fwd or roll-back and lean, then more on the muscle…

The other pt is that different Traditions emphasize different foundational-principles.. ie just as Yoga traditions often emphasize “raising’ the chest” (and thus rising-chi), and even a slight pause at the end of inhale before ex (purposefully interrupting the breath-flow).. and Tao-Water med does not (release-soften the chest, downward-currrent, smooth-flow of breath, thus breath can lengthen and link…
also thereby- more sense allow and enable what the body seeks to do- vs other traditions seem to be based upon, total-control, if you don’t micro-manage what the body (and mind) does, then it wil either be chaos, or it will just stop and do nothing…

So in other words- whether this other tradition teaches to actually collapse, or that is just a result of some of the principles.. if it doesn’t you may be able to note other differences from the Systems-method. (either way, many ‘meditation methods’ actually encourage ignoring/tuning-out the body.. and seeking-out the “reactions” as energetic or mind-experiences, that are often just the experiencing of bindings/blockages in your systems from the body’s collapsing…

…
some short sitting meditation alignments are actually re-contexting the standing alignments: (spine-connects head with pelvis, kwa and legs to the ground.. adjustments for how the feet contact the floor- even in “lotus”.. but espec if side of ankle or sole is touching… the line through the leg links to floor… the spine and the breathing is linked.. so movement of breath, and “balancing” upon how you contact the ground/your base- connects you as a whole … (the five extremities stay-alive).. vs many meditation postures that actually encourage, or at least allow, the talking-head feeling … the rest of phys fades (which then awareness withdraws into to torso, and then out of torso up to head..

(a few more than two-cents) – luck in your practice,

what do you find linking these different practices? do you find them the same? (seems you are thinking there is one “truth” but I wonder if they seem different, as the practices are actually mutually-exclusive? at least as they have developed…, or not ).. –

[Anonymous]

great stuff with much to continue to reflect on…

many approaches with truths for each and all somewhat different but maybe headed in the same direction, not sure about that, but maybe…

however, i’m getting to a point where all i remember is pattabhi jois saying, “just practice and all is coming.”

thanks

[Anonymous]

cheers- just a quick response/addition- “many approaches with truths for each…”
-I think it is a matter of significance per context
(i.e. if playing the “game of golf” how fast you get through each hole, and the full course, isn’t the issue (usually- officially).. nor does it matter how many steps you take.. just how many times you ‘strike the ball with a club’… other “games” like basketball- “how many” shots on the basket aren’t the issue (usually- again, as primary), just how many make it in… and “how many steps are taken” matter (i,e. not “counted” but in terms of travelling, etc.)
I’m not really a sports-game person, but the metaphor-context of “rules of play” (and how the entire “playing field” in the arena changes, if any of the rules are adjusted.. as in measuring/reinforcement affecting org-behav).. above the comparison of 2 different games, but what if different people playing a game (say golf) simultaneously- but adjusted.. one person is trying to have the fewest steps (thus could either- bounding/leap for longer strides.. a bit awkward.. or could end up influencing to actually have “shorter” drives, and thus “more strokes” vs the usual least times hit…

above long- round about ex- if you’ve read the last part of Opening the Energy Gates of the Body (where it talks about harmful sideeffects, things to watch out for.) and Bruce writes about certain disruptive reactions in such a way that it seems they are unwanted.. and yet I found most of those described I’ve seen in other systems “framed” as if they were “the way things are” (no pain, no gain- got to earn it.. end justifies and all that)- how can you tell it is “working” unless you feel all ragged?
-the “packing chi” many systems mention that as a desired, not as something to avoid..

so the base idea of having the Body-Conscious (how many “group-led meditations” end with, nor return to your body.. start to become connected, to the body you completely lost.. -vs the Idea of Tao-Water method, even in the most “far-out” states, one senses more “else” and yet simulataneously is more-physically present.. and relaxed and at ease (if feel lost control and fogged out- that is a slip.. other systems see that as a sign of a gain…)
— it only becomes comparable within one system, “other systems” seem off.. but if mutually exclusive/contrasting interps the idea of significance (its not a matter of doing it all perfectly at-once.. “separate and combine” – start with one piece, and then other parts… which is first, and which is put off? -change that “method” and changes all
[ ex system A says do XYZ first and put off worrying about ABC… System B the reverse… in the end, who can tell (so even if diff-systems ‘end’ in the same, the path.. put off— for instance, how many “sitting traditions” are ‘push-it through”… build up not just-phy stress/tension.. but energetic and definitely mental-tension.. “effortless focus- on a chosen idea” ~ like, a cramp in your muscles hold you in a certain shape- likewise a cramp in your mind, vs a flexibly free-flowing mind.. (again, if that isn’t the goal, spend time “keeping relaxed” -first many don’t find that important, but as an optional.. then it is cost-benefit… how much time do you spend on irrelevant aspects, vs the system-method’s techniques… (ie the Game being played, contexts XYZ as important, and ABC as insignificant).

………….

and that is interpreting that all methods end-up in the same-place, which I wouldn’t agree with
(let alone the “concept-in words” of a system, vs what is understood by the students of (the sub-cultural understanding) vs what those that have reached-the highest lvl in that system..
-those three I think are different, let alone end-goals oft being highly-contrasting between some Traditions.. scrape a bit below the surface…

was just sitting, presencing in the park for a while- so a quick note/response just kept flowing out the words.. I hope it might interest and be of benefit…

-it is “in what our practice/experience” shows us (reveals).. I find the key is to measure/be-come aware of, changes in one’s Consciousness, and Energetic-Structure
(ie if you seem the “same kind of person” then no matter what techniques develop, not the same as if you recognize you have not just changed-as-a-person, but changed the ‘kind’ of person…
-and if changed, how does your depths of Being feel about where-how you are going? -ongoing fdbk, [like as growing-up from being little, if you were “measured” and marked on the wall, how tall, and can see the little marks and dates.. and realize, I was getting taller, and was smaller.. and yet our perspective each day goes along

[Anonymous]

Interesting thread here.

Sitting and standing meditation are both “energy arts.”

So anything Bruce says about energy gates, standing, bagua and tai chi apply to seated meditation.

I’ve sat daily in the full lotus posture since 1976.
I start by placing my right foot on my left upper thigh.
(unfortunately I can’t alternate left to right thigh because of a left knee issue.)
This places disproportionate weight on my left sit bone
and invites lateral scoliosis, which I try to offset with yoga side plank.

I try the ramrod posture of Shikantaza described by Zen Soto monk Dogen (1320 AD).
However, my posture sucks.
Butt does tend to stick back.
I slump forward, so I tried sitting against a wall–no permanent improvement.
I also tried sitting with a book on my head–no improvement as soon as the prop is removed.

My solution:
Practice opening the energy gates as taught by Bruce.
Dan Kleiman, one of Bruce’s students, had produced about 21 half-hour audios on opening the energy gates in the standing posture.
I find that my posture can be less than perfect and still calm the mind-body with doing internal dissolving through energy gates from head to toe.
Dan counsels that this has to be a “feeling” process, not a “thinking” or visualization” process.
Yet he does provide a recipe.
You can google “Dan Kleiman” and still find some of his you tubes.
(Dan is no longer active at Brookline.)

I am not suggesting that mind is more important than body.
Both mind and body must be dropped off (Dogen).
Body can lead the brain, as well as the brain leads the body.

Take care
Bob

[Anonymous]

thank you bob,

great hearing a fellow traveler’s related experience…

cheers

daniel

[Author]

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