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I thought this would be entertaining…. Check out this website and its article…
http://www.chiarts.com/the-myth-of-tucking-the-tailbone-mainmenu-16.html
Interesting find- I often have seen this sort of interpretation (although I hadn’t seen this particular article-approach), and recent years many like to use this actually as an issue to point to Chiropractic/Kinesiology etc. to present understanding- as the Internal principles are being “transferred” to External methods of teaching.. as Bruce has said the stage of moving from “that’s not how we do things” to “here’s a better way to understand that” before shifting to “we always knew that” (ex acupuncture translate as “electricity” not chi… etc.)
My way of differentiating this is Taoist methods (particularly water method systems of Naturalness vs Martial Systems that are ok with “forcing” for a particular result- nopain, nogain sort of thing)- is that you can’t just “do” the principle, as to implement the principle, one’s system then has to physically change over time.
Ex lengthening of soft-tissue or release boundchi/releasing the rev in the nerves… these can’t just be “Ok got it” boom, next… One takes a step towards that goal with each moment of practice, and over time changes….. (transformation effect).The difficulty is hearing a principle like that and “do it” interpretation… thus “tuck” or point or whatever of the back… (so many times I’ve heard that come up) as if you can take one off the street (or out of a gym) and bend them into position and Eureka… the bouncey-squishy-electricallyCharged presence of a practitioner is different, and that happens over time.
So I’d interpret the desired effect like the spine itself releasing and Hydraulically getting longer (as well as the “stuff” inside the torso- espec the lower abs and pelvis, releasing and thus like a sack full of clothes its outer shape can change and reshuffle the contents inside). Thus “eventually” in the form 1 of two methods- either tail bone, and thus spine, points straight down, _or_ it actually points under and fwd of down (and may flow between)- depending of system… but before getting there, one’s structure has changed in quite a few ways…
Not to say one doesn’t work on getting it there, but the photo on the referenced webpage does indicate a way to misrep and dismiss… coming from context of “grab the body and make it do what is needed.”I hope above might make sense to some and add to this- let me know how this does/doesn’t relate to your experience(s)
I agree… For myself… seeing the website photo of the guy tucking his tailbone is without a doubt the perfect example of using contraction to create a tuck not to mention he’s also forcebly rounding his shoulders as well…. Ive studied Chi Kung for over twenty years and martial arts most of my life. The last 18 yrs my primary focus has been on a family pakua system… I totally get the releasing the tailbone thing…
It should be pretty obvious to anyone with even a little experience that it should be done in a relaxed manner. Even still, if you do it in a semi-relaxed way then you can still use it to add another force vector if you tuck it and mentally point it at your opponent. I’m just not sure that idea is used in tai chi though but it definitely works.
In my experience the forced tucking of the tailbone thing is just something you use initially to get people to get the feeling of how the body should be. Then you supplement that immediately – in the same lesson – with getting them to flatten their back against a wall or similar. The idea of all these exercises is just to demonstrate the physical structure; a structure that most people can’t initially reach without some tension.
If the student then continues to use tension to hold that position, the author of this article might be correct. Any instructor though should be immediately moving the student towards relaxing the back, releasing the lumbar area. This release of tensions assists with Qi flow, posture, formwork, etc. etc. If that is done, then I’ve not seen any of the problems the author proposes.
Interesting reading though.
That this could be a problem never occured to me. To me it was always obvious that in Tai Chi nothing will be accomplished by keeping a tensed position.
When teaching, I always tell the people to tuck the tailbone silghtliy, very slightly to encourage the opening of the lower back. But to do it relaxed, not tensed
I also told people that wenn tucking, they should NOT do it with ther psoas muscle, but by relaxing their back muscles.
I’ve been practicing qigong for about five years now. I was taught to tuck my tailbone as part of the basic standing posture.
I have had back pain that I believed that was a result of damage to my spine in a car accident when I was 14. I am now 60. When I was 40, I began having more back pain, that I believed was from disc degeneration over the years. I eventually had some surgeries, which provided minimal relief.
Recently I heard Esther Gokhale talking on NPR about her work, her book, and her method for relief of back pain. Her 20 years of research and practice showed that tucking the tailbone is the cause of most of people’s back pain. That correct posture is to lift the pelvis in the back, like pouring liquid out the front of the pelvic bowl.
I made this minor change in my posture while practicing qigong, and the effect was profound. I experienced for the first time in my life having a skeletal structure that works in supporting my body, and I feel like I have a new lease on life!
I learned about rooting from Mantak Chia. In his rooting, you “screw” your legs into the ground by rotating your knees outward. When I do this with my tailbone up, I can find the resistance in the tendons above and below my knees, and I feel a strong frame form with my legs connected to my pelvis, and I actually feel rooted. If I do this rooting with my tail tucked, I never feel the resistance in my legs around my knees, and the structure of binding my legs and pelvis together never happens.
This effect is not subtle. It is obvious and pronounced, and it changes, for the better, every movement in every form I practice.
For one thing, it even works when standing on one leg. With my tailbone lifted and “locked”, I have strength and balance to do things on one leg that I was not able to do with my tail tucked.
Part of the Gokhale Primal Posture method is to bend from the waist, keeping the tailbone tucked and the back straight. This feels so much better than bending with a slouch. I can feel it lengthening my hamstrings and protecting my back.
I am a bit concerned that there might be something wrong with my new found technique about which I am unaware, because the opposite is so universally taught. That is why I am searching the web for more information about whether or not to tuck the tailbone in qigong forms.
Just one-view-pt, how that one localized area responds depends upon the rest of the body.. thus if the psoas, as well as other tendons/ligs internal to the lower-abs (as well as along/around the back of the spine) are tight and bound [as most are, locked up there like bungee-cords and high-tension suspension bridges], is quite different than free and yet integrated.
(the lower-back movement, and how it clicks into the hip-legs, as well as up through the diaphram, of gymnasts… or infants, someone that does Capoeira.. if see not just how they freely flow when doing something more acrobatic, but how they sit and stand and squat… its not quite the same.
-a phenomena I’ve seen mentioned in most of the movement-arts: ex Feldenkrais Method or BodyMindCentering, if you check out either of those, is NeuroMuscularAmnesia.. ie “blind spots” kinestheticallynot only a blind-spot in what you feel in your-self, thus those areas lock up.. but even to be able to ‘see’ in another’s movement.. Thus to see how a practitioner (say of Taichi or Bagua) movement in a certain area ‘differently’ than we do, is difficult
‘The Elusive Obvious’ as Moshe Feldenkrais called it (‘also at times the Obvious can be Elusive)
…..
so in short, if you were being given movement practice (or movement-integration, an intervention by another moving-guiding you.. to provide your system a new ex of what is poss), the question if whether the short-term devel (how to see the best progress from where you are), vs a more long-term devel (so it may not be as noticable right-away, as depends how much restructuring is needed to fix one’s “foundation”
-I think much problem is when one is guided shifting back and forth between those (some long-term, and then shift to short-term, and then. just “the way” irrespective of how it relates to “your system/sit”… the inconsistence of the program then makes it really confusing….
.. in short, I’d say you are right to be concerned, and to look at the idea of “discomfort” which is related to working, and contacting unpleasantness, VS “discomfort/pain” related to a sense of wrongness (those two are difficult to distinguish, if that makes sense).
and that the goal, could be to make your system free and easy (int’l strength doesn’t feel strong, it just is.. unnoticed. vs feeling a sense of distinctness which is actually a set of tension.. as the bone-knee lock and screw method- but that is better than feeling disconnected and in pain.. just to know that there is another goal beyond that…. this is, as I understand it, a big part of the goal of these arts….
the trick seems to be to find not just an instructor, but other co-students, that have a sense of this, and can Embody in their movements and being that which you seek to have in Your Movements and Being…(not sure where you are at- in terms of locally, or even a bit of travel, to find others- hunt and seek, to see movement possibilities..
having a few moments interaction with one that can not only stand and move as you seek-to, but One that can transmit-transfer that to your system.. (ie ChiGungTuiNa.. or other “subtle” nudged… which I’ve found to be rarer than supposed, and yet is out there
– just less appreciated than it should-be.. largely per the type of books written on this subject it is preferred to think (in our modern culture) that one should be able to explicitly state- do XYZ and you ‘do’ that (XYZ, assuming that written or spoken words can describe/be understood by one that hasn’t experienced)In short- I find there are a few different models/methods- goals of body-being, they are not all the same (and thus be aware of which is which, and not confuse them up) In the same way that (at the gross-lvl) the terms Ext’l MartialArts and Int’l MartialArts are referring to different systems…. both can work- and both have a range of development.. but they are a bit mutually exclusive (many books on the subject- like the one mentioned in the comment- is actually Internal-External MartialArts.. using External methods with some internal concepts.. vs – at least that is my opinion
good luck
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