Is Chi a “belief”?

[Anonymous]

I feel or “believe” that I can sense my own chi. Since it is not consciously experienced by everyone does that mean that you must believe in it for it to exist? I just had some interesting conversation with some family about the existence of chi and whether it can be called a belief or belief system. Do the accounts that people have had over thousands of years with what they believe to be “chi” have any relevance other than for that individual?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Kevin

[Anonymous]

Hi Kevin,
As an acupuncturist, I see many people who have no concept of qi/chi and exclaim of various sensations that we have correlated with qi: Tingling, heavy, warm, electric, cool, liquid, pressure, glowing…
“Belief” is a funny word. Depending on what kind of skeptic a person is can leave them open or closed. I think it’s healthy to be skeptical, but a pessimistic skeptic will never be open to other ideas; an optimistic skeptic will concede if logical understanding can apply and be followed.
A dog doesn’t follow belief structure, so when we see acupuncture work on the dog, is it belief that is the overriding factor? It wouldn’t seem logical.
Can you experience qi right now without having to brainwash yourself first? Someone within these blogs has talked on this subject also with, I think, the same following description.
Try this and see what you notice.
Rub your hands together vigorously-fast for 30 seconds (time it). After 30 seconds, separate them about 2 to 3 inches. Concentrate on what you feel in between your hands. Examine, see, and feel.
What do you experience? And now, what do you believe?
From my experience, I believe various things, but it’s experience that is my ultimate teacher. I personally believe what I can verify within my own Being to be true. Hopefully your experiences can help you discover what’s true.
Steve

[Anonymous]

hey kevin

good question

the answer, from my experience, is surely no.
chi can function even if someone disbelieves it.
in fact, they are using their chi in order to disbelieve.

I practice chi gung tui na, over last 2 1/2 years, and so far, about 10 % of my clients make some comment like; ” im feeling this _____in my ____, it feels good and, wow, what is that?”

but the rest of em, they don’t notice anything, in fact, it’s hard for people to even get how I can just touch and hold their head for 5 minutes, and then their hips feel better. But what happens is; they don’t really care why it works, they are just glad to get themselves functioning better.

personally, I went back and forth for years about it, even after it should have been very obvious to me (im a pretty western thinking guy, or I used to be). But using occcams razor principle, i came to the conclusion that something is happening, we don’t know exactly what, but the classic descriptions are generally right on, if you get that they are trying to describe an internal experience.

so many times, id be practicing, something really good would start to happen, and id be like; “that’s exactly how Bruce described _____”

and since science never finds truth, only works towards it; i feel highly confident in my intellectual assumption that chi exists, and that mostly, people are so in their heads and indoctrinated into a non spiritual way of looking at the world, they have a hard road to accept chi a a part of their reality, no matter how obvious it is.

and my personal testimonial is that there is for sure something that feels like chi inside of me, and as I practice well, it gets more full, vibrant, and real. and I use that part of myself in healing others, it consistently works. Bruce has been crucial to helping me find it.

id even go so far to say, it’s getting REALLY SWEET. I truly feel im a part of the universe, like it’s just one big huge womb. or something…

But I don’t generally go around telling people. I just say, this really works, it’s kinda weird, but it feels good, let’s try it and see if you benefit. most folks really dig it…

it’s worth the time to climb the chi gung mountain for yourself, and let the others stay in the village.

hope this is of some help.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your thoughts Steve. I think you hit the nail on the head.

Kevin

[Anonymous]

Hi Kevin,

If qi is a real and true phenomenon that exists beyond doubt, then, to answer your question simply, to disbelieve it could only result from ignorance, stupidity or mental illness.

The next question: Is this concept of qi in the position of being proved beyond doubt to be true.

Subjective experience is a powerful form of evidence, I would not disagree. However, you would only have to ask a meditation master, not to mention the annals of psychiactric and psychological research, that the capacity of the human mind for self delusion and self deception is immense.

Try taking your question in reverse: Can a belief influence the subjective experience of a person? Absolutely it can. To take a very simple example: double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials. It is a point commonly overlooked that the placebo group always performs very well. Belief unquestionably can affect subjective experience, so how then can subjective experience be taken as a sole criterion for knowledge of what is true?

Your previous respondent from EasternWays came close to this view: if you practice acupuncture on a dog, an animal that has no beliefs to speak of, and it works, then you come close to beginning to be able to prove that the concept of qi, upon which acupuncture is based, is true. I say close, but try a hundred dogs, and then begin to refine your hypothesis of qi based on those results….

Best wishes to all,

G

[Anonymous]

It is not a question of belief, laddie – but merely of AWARENESS!

[Anonymous]

Hey Kevin,

I spent years trying to feel qi. When practicing taiji, qigong, xingyi and standing meditation, each time I thought I might be feeling qi, I was able to identify the feeling as being an effect of a combination of factors. Something was definitely happening, but the question I got stuck on was whether qi is a thing, a substance in-and-of itself, or an idea that references different effects. When I stopped thinking of qi as a substance and started viewing it as a way to reference effects in my body, my experience with qi began to line up with the texts I was reading and with the references I was hearing; Qi made sense.

When you practice qigong, are you moving qi the substance, or are you feeling effects that are identified as qi? When you practice acupuncture, are you regulating qi the substance, or are you creating an effect in a person that you are calling qi? When you do acupuncture on a dog, is the dog responding because of the substance qi being altered, or is the dog having a series of responses that we refer to as qi, even though we cannot necessarily identify what is in totality causing the effects?

I have found qi the idea to be more coherent and accurate than qi the substance. If qi is a substance, we should expect to develop a qi detector at some point. Since qi refers to so many things, I have a feeling that no matter how many times qi may be discovered or identified in scientifically reproduceable conditions, the qi-substance believer will always point to qi being something other than the substance that is actually being tested for. Qi as an idea is okay with this.

What do others think? I feel that you will feel the effects either known as qi or the effects of qi whether you believe in qi or not. These effects are real feelings that anybody will experience. The question is does the person have to see these feelings as being qi as a unique substance, or can the person see qi as the cumulative effects that are being pointed to?

[Anonymous]

One of the Q’s that come to mind after reading this: “Is the man running on the treadmill moving the treadmill OR is the treadmill moving the man? Another: “Is the hamster in the wheel making it spin OR is the wheel making the hamster run?”
Anyway…
Qi is not so simple of a subject to discuss. It really can blow up big and your left spinning your wheels till they’re squeaking you into madness.
On both counts your right;
1) Qi is a substance. It’s most accurate and literal definition is vital vapor or vital sustance. In fact, it’s many substances. In Chinese medicine we denote 8 different types of qi: QingQi, ZhongQi, ZhengQi, YuanQi,GuQi, YingQi, WeiQi and JingQi. It’s a bit lengthy to describe the Qi physiology.
2) It is the culmination of all these qi’s (cheese) working together that allow us to experience the Big Cheese (Qi). I’m having fun here with Qi and cheese…
I think Bruce talks about this in both Energy Gates and Relaxing into your Being, differentiating big Chi form a more regular chi.
This is a taoist concept that has come down the history-pipe, through Chinese medicine and culture.
So that I don’t get too drawn out here, I think wikipedia does a good job of thoroughly explaining Qi as it’s come down the pipe. They really convey the idea well.
There are people out there trying to devise a Qi detector and some have claimed to do so, but nothing yet exists that I know of (not that I know all). But, I like knowing that our human skill and our potentials are greater than that of some machine or computer. I fact the capacity of a desktop computer is equivalent to that of a slug (I recently found out) and our human brain is like 10,000 super computers.
Anyway…
This is a fun discussion. Thanks for opening this Can O’ Worms Kevin.
Peace
Steve

[Anonymous]

I kinda go along with EasternWays’ view.

I tried to tackle this subject under the topic
“Chi and Internal Power.”

However, in the most recent Spring 2011 issue of “T’ai Chi” magazine, Master Yu Cheng Hsiang is remembered.
One of his students wrote that Master Yu would say,
“Do not worry about chi. If your physical is no good, chi is no good.” (page 26)

Many masters say the same thing–don’t worry about chi.

I worry about it all the time.
In fact, I thought that studying acupuncture points (for about 3 years) would be the key to understanding what chi was.
It has helped, but is still inconclusive–Qi seems to run both ways in any given meridian; e.g. in the lung meridian Qi is numbered to flow from the chest to the end of the thumb. But there seems to be a reverse flow from thumb to chest, too.
This is consistent with the concept of Yin and Yang–there is no such thing as pure Yin–within Yin there is a little Yang–that white dot in the black fish of the Yin-Yang icon.
Furthermore, in push hands, in advance there must also be retreat.

I usually fall back on Godel’s theorems of mathematical logic–the incompleteness theory–in any complex system no axiom can prove all the facts of the system–there will always be statements that are unprovable within the system.
Even in arithmetic there is an underlying axiom that can’t be proved (e.g. 1 1 = 2 assumes that in the decimal system that when you have nothing and add 1 to 0 you have 1) ( in the binary system the assumption is a bit different because you only have two states: 0–on and 1–off–1 1 is not 2–there is no 2 in the binary system. A different fundamental axiom that works, but can’t be proven). Anyway, ask your computer for an explanation–I’m no mathematician.

The definition of “Qi” is kinda like this, too.
The “Tao” itself is like this.
“God” is like this.

Just assume that “Qi” moves blood.
Without “Qi” your blood would just sit there.

See how it works doing taiji.

Bob
Post Falls, Idaho USA

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