longevity

[Anonymous]

Hello Folks,

This is going to sound nuts, but I have to ask it. Like most I have a lot of yogie friends and one of them asked me a question i was at a total loss to answer. “Why do yogies out live tai chi masters? As far as longevity, look at the biography of most tai chi “masters”, of old and new, you’ll notice they typically lived from 45-80 years. The largest percent probably living up to between 65-75 years. However, there are a great many instances of yogi’s living well into their hundreds!”

any comments out there??

cheers

daniel

[Anonymous]

Well, for one thing Yogis don’t tend to get into fights and sustain injuries during their practice Tai Chi was mostly practised as a martial art and the longevity of practitioners was almost certainly not their main concern.

If you want to compare like with like then you would probably have to look at long term Qigong practitioners. Specifically people that are practising high level stuff for health and spiritual purposes – maybe look at Taoist monasteries.

Then you would have to take into account cultural and genetic differences and the quality and nature of the practices being done. It’s really not easy to make general statements.

As Bruce has said many times – the real high level stuff is not that common in China.

[Anonymous]

Hello there is a much to this- and the first being I think one needs to compare “apples” to “apples” (and though it may seem like it is.. or at least “you know what I mean” sort of thing.. I ‘think’ (not sure) but I think it is initially confused, per that distinction)
— in short-
“most” taichi masters (master practitioner, or master instructor, master as martial-applications, vs master at healing, vs master of meditation.. or only ‘all’ ). but “most” and “typically” means that you are looking at the perceived average/mean of that group.

contrast to-
“there are a great many instances” — which could mean, or at least imply, that are examples- outliers, extremes… ie ‘not average’ (even if there seem to be many- or in ex: picking tops of stock-market curves.. vs picking the mid-lvl of another stock market curve…. the central “average” will be distinct from those selected-as-tops… even if you ‘seem’ to have found a similar number

and that is getting past the perceptual-dispositions. (we have a sense that many are seen- ‘many’ or a few, and therefore there must be many?) let alone, long-age especially seems to be distorted (questioning, both ways, challenging longevity records, not just how ‘representative they are” (if “outlier” etc).. but even the challenge, are they as old as say? (and oft a quote is given that here is 2,3, or 4 examples.. “and there are others like” easy to have a summary, ie from second-hand data to 3rd (4th, 5th… )

(so in ref to above, and below, I wonder if that might be so? as a base premise- just my view, I wouldn’t see that as the case- except as I started apples-oranges, average-range vs extreme-examples-picked )
…………..
anyway- if we just instead have a working-hypothesis: if we assume that Yoga practice produces greater longevity than Taichi Chuan practice… why might that be? (then working reasons why so, as well as counter-reasons: why TaiChiChuan produces longevity.. etc.)

… the first issue might be A) Yogis.. not only is one system of Yoga, in one tradition/school, practices in different ways.. but not all “Yogis” are even doing close to the same things.. (LayaKriya Yogi, vs an Aghori, vs the “Raja Patanjali Sanyama” Dharana…
vs Mantra Yogi (which may use Trataka on Yantra-designs… ) these are just to list out some names- those came to mind as what many consider Yoga, and yet are quite different (let alone Sun-Moon nadi work- traditionally called Ha-Tha… that may be down focusing much on breathing and much energy-work.. or the Cosmopolitan Hatha Yoga, which is most all just postures- and gymnastic type balancing….

-above not be which is ‘better’ but clearly grouping all together? which practice…
but population of people.. if saying Yogis, in India as well as US or Europe.. vs TaiChiChuan in China (with the timing being those that lived through the Cultural Revolution, and related ‘near-famine times’.. and purging-dilution of the teaching schools….) – if you have one area of a country– say a locale of villages around a Mtn which have a number of Yogis (which yoga?) and also TaiChiChuan ‘masters’ -In the same area, same climate, same group of people, (thus food, lifestyle- etc.. hopefully both tradition-practices by similar people-mixed.. (vs different career-occupations, etc…. )

So first issue would be to examine, is it? and also to clarify the distinctions (this is just my view)…

.also- just a thought I’ve had, what if those who practice TaiChiChuan.. are drawn to such a practice, subconsciously, who are those that are likely to live longer anyway… (my old example, it could be phrased in your case, as Yogis.. what if those in that population who are most likely Physiologically to live-longer.. are more-likely to subconsciously, and explicitly-consciously, to be drawn to practice Yoga .? (sort of flips the causal-relation? or at least the viewpt assumption.. chicken&egg?..)

===============
so beyond- what kind of Yoga… I’m sure there is a similar Yogi focus like the TaiChi Chuan issue of Focus.. (if done for Martial Application, one might develop the capacity to stay calm&present in changing-range motion, and slip the gap. and fa-jin as well as lu-absorb-neutralizing.. both without “strength-effort”.. but not specifically done for “self-health”… especially if those tweaks were not learned in their lineage- as well as focused-upon..)

So beyond hardship- in prior yrs (near-famine-espec, trauma like perhaps actual torture experiences.. as well as loss of avail teachers- as all ‘teachers” chased underground…. (and the details that make the health-really work, not being widely taught). but … rather than “age-yrs” the quality of life.. ?

There are some Yogis and other speakers that get older- and spend time speaking, sitting, or even slumping.. but not moving-around so well.. but there are people that age-older (I just visited my grandparents and there friends- most all are in their nineties.. they don’t do things to stay healthy at all- even if I’ve been mentioning things for yrs .. sigh
but they don’t walk so well, they use walkers, and especially doing a pivot-turn-step (like the oft-weight-shift 45, 90 degree turn.. let alone a turn/walk/spin of BaguaZhang… do they breathe well? let alone exude a sense of relaxation? -these people are more so in their nineties based upon modern-food and invasive-intensive medicine (?) contrasted to those from an area/time without so much, even if they did practice a rejuvenating art..

(but to live to only 70, but still to the last day, be practicing one’s martial-form.. let alone walking down the street- climbing up, and down, stairs.. standing and sitting with ease.. and breathing (and other functions-regular and flowing-easily)….. vs one how lives to 95 but started to slow down in their 50s.. then be late 60s no longer standing so well. etc.. and so on. ?

—
anyway- not to dismiss the question -just that I think above needs to clear the foundation first, before can actually make sense of..

[Anonymous]

Check out Wu Tunan 106 when he died…He’s probably most notable I can think of. ( double check the age, I’m probably off by a year or two.)

[Anonymous]

My first thought would be to question the accuracy of these ages. E.g., are the ages of these centenarian yogis independently authenticated? Longevity is an incredibly complex topic, influenced by so many variables, some interrelated, others completely random. I seem to recall Bruce mentioning that bagua masters are, in general, known to live longer than tai chi masters – presumably, in part, because bagua is more physically dynamic and energetic. Re. yogis vs tai chi masters, many yogis adopt lifestyles that include austere practices such as fasting and strict diets, both thought by some scientists to increase longevity through the physiological adaptations triggered by austere dietary practices. I have the impression that many tai chi masters have ordinary lifestyles, indeed in China many smoke like proverbial chimneys and drink like proverbial fishes! Also, tai chi as practiced by serious full contact martial artists leads to injuries – including those that affect many boxers, some leading to brain damage and the subsequent consequences like dementia and Parkinson’s. I would guess that tai chi masters who adopt healthy, even austere, lifestyles probably live longer than those who smoke and drink. Another thought is that many tai chi masters lived through the starvation and extreme deprivation of Mao’s awful regime, which killed tens of millions. The many stresses of this period of extreme hardship and starvation would have taken their toll.

[Anonymous]

Hi, Daniel.

As I understand the history of tai chi, many of the tai chi masters that are included in the various histories of the art were fighters. They trained hard, fought often, and had hard lives. They were often illiterate and poor. There are a whole other lineage of taoist folks who did a variety of longevity practices, including tai chi, qi gong and meditation, who lived long, healthy lives. Many of these sages weren’t martial arts “stars” or well known by the public. I think that’s why you tend to hear about the tai chi masters who didn’t live as long as the yogis.

This is only my understanding and I look forward to hearing what others have to say,

Sincerely,
Matthew

[Anonymous]

gentlemen,

thank you, good information and i’ll pass it on to my yogi friend

personally i practice both and wonder at times if it would be better to practice only one, then i ask myself which would i give up since i find enormous value in each.

for me they both lead to deeper and more focused meditation…

so for now, practice both, i’m old and have the time, so what the heck, right?

cheers

daniel

[Anonymous]

T.T. Liang became to be over 100 years I believe. I have read Bruce stuidied with him.

[Anonymous]

yes there seem to be a few recorded tai chi masters however there also seem to be many more recorded yoga masters ie.,

krishnamachria – 100
his three main students:
indra divi – 102
iyengar – 96
pattabhi jois – 94

after knocking this around a bit i have come to agree with those who mentioned the martial aspects of tai chi being the reason
what we don’t hear about is qigong masters

oh well, it’s all good and i believe it time to get back to practice. as jois said “practice and it’s all coming”

cheers

daniel

[Author]

Posts