Old Yang Style Form: Counting of Postures

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone

Maybe my question is covered elsewhere, but I didn’t find it.
Bruce is saying that the first third of the form consists of 14 movements. But if I start counting with 1 at Commencement, Cross Hands is movement 15 not 14:

1. Commencement
2. Single Hand Peng
3. Double Hand Peng
4. Lu
5.. Ji
6. An
7. Single Whip
8. Lifting Hands
9. Pull Down
10. Shoulder Stroke
11. White Crane
12. Brush Knee Twist Step
13. Step Forward, Parry And Punch
14. Apparent Close Up
15. Cross Hands

Thanks for any reply and greetings from Switzerland.
Marcel

[Anonymous]

Counting movements is problematical.

Yangchenfu counted 19
Yang, Jwing-Ming counts 22
T.T. Liang counted 22
Victor Wu (Taijiquan in 88 Forms) counted 13
Tchoung Ta-Tchen counted 26

Your count has eliminated “Play the Pi Pa.”
(This is a more serious omission than varied counting.)

Your movement 12 counts only one “Brush Knee Twist.”
There are at least 3.
Some forms include a 4th after “Play the Pi Pa.”

movement 13 “Step Forward, Parry and Punch” can also be broken down into:
Twist Body and Circle Fist,
Step Forward,
Deflect Downward,
Chop down,
Parry and Punch.

Every teacher I’ve known does the 1st 3rd slightly differently.

It’s all a learning opportunity.

No problem.

[Anonymous]

Hi Marcell Robert.
Thanks for this thread.
Robert, could you say how many movements are in the full Classic Tai Chi Forms
Thanks
David Castle

[Anonymous]

Hi David,
I can’t say. 88/105/108/113/150/120
All arts are works in progress;
this includes the art of Yang Lu Chan.
As he developed the Long Form there were no photos, no book published by him: just a few crude drawings.
I think that it is impossible to pin down a “classic,” “traditional, ” “authentic,” “old” version of the Long Form by Yang Lu Chan.
But I’m no historian of Tai Chi.

88:
I learned an 88 Form from a small paperback,
“Taijiquan in 88 Forms,” Hai Feng Publishing, Hong Kong, 1983.
Once I learn a Form, that’s the Form that becomes the standard for me. So it’s wise to carefully pick the Form the seems best for you–however, in 1993 I had little choice.

105:
by Master Jou, Tsung Hwa,”The Dao of Taijiquan.”

113:
IMO the Form with the most consistency is by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. He published his first version decades ago.
He’s updated his book in a 2nd edition in 2010.
He has an accompanying DVD
and a mobile app.

150:
by Master T.T. Liang
in “Yang Style Traditional Long FormT’ai Chi Ch’uan,”
by Gordon Muir, 2008.
Master Liang sung cadence with each move:
1,2,3,4: 1,2,3,4

120:
by Master Tchoung Ta-Tchen,
“The Annotated Theoretical and Practical Tai Chi Chuan,” in Chinese and English, 1993, 1995 translated with DVD by Laurens Lee, Burnaby, B.C.
This is a “Dual Form” which shifts back and forth from Left and Right, very challenging (but ambiguous and inconsistent in some areas)–never heard of some of the movements before, like “Old Dragon Turns Around.”

108:
Michael Gilman on the Internet.
Gilman emphasizes applications.

36 (moves):
by Bruce Frantzis in his on-line course.
Many of these 36 moves are repeated several times in the Long Form. Doesn’t look like Bruce is going to put them together in a complete Long Form.

108:
by Susan Noire of Summerland, B.C.
She has a few variations I hadn’t seen before.
The number of times a move is executed within the Form varies.
“Cloud Hands” can be done 3 or 5 or 7 times.
“Repulse the Monkey” can be 1 or 3 or 5 steps backwards.
“Snake Creeps Low” can be repeated on Left and Right sides.
“Lotus Kick can be done with Right and Left legs.

All these forms serve the purpose of amping up and deepening the Qi,
something that is hard to achieve with a short form–even doing a short form three times consecutively.

No wonder Chairman Mao dictated that a standard form be devised.
Cheng Man-Ching also tried to shorten the Long Form to make it easier to learn.

Nevertheless the art suffers with standardization.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Hello -this post/question from a-ways-back, but as this question relates to the “counting of moves” – and thus other related questions…

just to add my two cents- some authors write as if the steps in seqs are all numbered, while -my understanding- of the tradition is that the different movement “forms” are counted (slight variations, let alone repetitions, are not counted again)..
Sort of like there are 26 ABCs (alpha-bet).. even though a dictionary uses them repetitively, and in different combos (which changes their pronounciation- ie thus that is like adjustments of a “form-move” depending upon what is before &/or after.. linkage alters it).

[while, as I mentioned above, other systems- espec the ‘modern’ standardized- look at that differently, more movie-frame like; which corresponds more to the ‘lessons’.] By having a movement returned to, and thus deepen, one can layer more in it (either “later” in the form, or through another “round” so to speak).

.. anyway- what I’d been doing was listing moves &#, and lesson, as they went, and then last lesson, there were two left.. so it worked- but in the last lesson there is a pdf (and a doc), that lists the names/#s. (in case any hadn’t seen, and wished to)- which varied from my list.. even thought some line up.
-so with that this last pt (the “official”? list is not the below)- but just to submit in case helps any- a list I made, with lesson #s, of unique moves (and a couple notes on just a few). We’re just for me, but I had a thought to put out there.

cheers
__________
Month 1
1- (allow sung of CTS to lengthen in-out &out-in, centre/spine- organs)- relax behind eyes- throat, and open peripheral vision up-down L&R
Month 2
2- Single Hand Peng
3- Double Hand Peng
Month 3
4- Lu
5- Ji
Month 4
6- An (to root, then split, then bao-ball, then squeeze-rise and twist)
7- Single Whip
Month 5
8- Lifting Hands (diff from “play lute”)
9- Pull Down
Month 6
10- Sh Stroke (shoulder drive from center.. Kao- elbow actually drives the motion, the wrist and hand just rides) “13 postures” (vs # ‘moves’) ZhongDing-Spine/Centre&CL, stay root
11- White Crane spreads wings
Month 7
12- Brush Knee Twist Step (inside-lead arm pengs out; outer-rear arm ans inward- fill via ball) use ball to open-balance not just top, but lower body also/espec
13- Play the Lute (different from “lifting hands”)
Month 8
14- Step Fwd Parry & Punch
15- Apparent Close-up (this move seems to be embedded in else moves).
16- X hands -R
[First Third]
Month 9
17- Return Tiger to Mtn
18- Fist Under Elbow
Month 10
19- Repulse Monkey
20- Slanted Flying
Month 11
21- High Pat on Horse
22- Golden Needle to the Sea Bottom [(twirl-spiralling current) ~silk reel]
Month 12
23- Fan Through Back
24- Turn Body and Chop with Fist (1,2,3)
[Step Fwd parry and punch] ? -half step- drive from rear-leg (up front leg) as similar to prior ‘move’ not counted again…
Month 13
25- Cloud Hands (1,2,3)
Month 14
26- Separate Hands R&L
27- Spin and Kick with Heel (L)
28- Step Fwd and Downward Punch
[X hands- L]
[Second Third]
Month 15
29- Part the Wild Horse’s Mane
30- Fair Lady Weaves the Shuttles
Month 16
31- Squatting Single Whip (Snake creeps down)
32- Golden Rooster (1,2)
Month 17
33- Hit the Tiger (L&R)
34- Separate Hands and Kick with Heel (R)
Month 18
35- Strike the Dragon’s Ears : Distinct- drop, twirl and rise (1,2,3) – spiralling is all contained ‘in’ body.. (~Needle at sea bottom?) Target the ears and/or back of the head as the joints close at the end of the move (‘strength’ in your back, and soft in front- dropping down front, it can be full) -lengthening out (or in) and yet still be soft in that reaching.
Release the arms fully before you do the twirl and come up – sinking and letting go of the arms and legs on the downward descent. Sit in the kwa
36- Using strong openings and closings in Conclusion to condense the qi within the lower tantien
[Final/Third Third]

The tai chi section will show 36 moves and each month we will go deep into how to do the physical movements, alignments, and application components.

At the end of “every posture” make sure your feet are stable and on the ground

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