Old Yang Style Tai Chi request for insight

[Anonymous]

Hello,

I need direction. I started my path in QiGong and Taichi in September 2014 when I began practicing Dragon and Tiger QiGong. In December 2014 I added the Five Keys to Taoist Energy Arts and in May 2105 started the Circle Membership: Old Yang Style Tai Chi. So here we are, roughly 2 years later and as you can see, I am a beginner.

I remember being taught the postures are done in a very specific way and I need to replicate them as taught in order to do the Old Yang style correctly – which I did to the best of my ability.

Around the time of the second-third of the form, I learned there seems to always be another way to do a posture. Not totally different, but an added little tweak or an improvement or an upgrade. At first it was confusing, especially with the instruction to do the postures as they were taught. Now we have finished the Old Yang style.

In the last video, month 18, session 18, I really wanted to see the whole style done from beginning to end. Bruce seems to have added, modified or taken away from the steps we were taught. It is definitely different in parts and this is now were I, a beginner, am asking for help.

Do I try to replicate the Old Yang as Bruce is now doing it in video 18? Is this change because Bruce is the one who came up with the Old Yang 36 style and is constantly impoving on it, therefore changes will happen? Is he doing it as a “Master” and what I see is something I now need to be working towards in the future? What about the ‘do it exactly as taught’ instruction? Am I, because of inexperience, missing or misinterpreting something?

Any help or insight will be greatly appreciated.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Hi Jim,
See my comment below for the topic:
“Month 15 transition from single whip to part wild horses mane”

IMO there really isn’t an “Old Yang Style 36 Form.”
Bruce has analyzed 36 of the basic postures of the Long Form. His info on the internal energetics can’t really be found elsewhere.

There are books/DVDs/Apps/on-line scripts that take the whole Long Form from beginning to end.
Even though there are different variations, they really are very similar, whether they count the postures as
88/108/120/150.
The count varies according to how many times each of the basic 36 postures are repeated.

One of my favorites is a 2-app version by Dr. Yang, Jwing -Ming. Google to find his website.

Select one version that you like.
Watch and imitate.
Then go back and re-study Bruce’s materials.

A very detailed version taught by T. T. Liang (student of Cheng Man-ching) 150 postures is in the book “Yang Style Traditional Long Form Tai Chi Chuan” performed by Gordon Muir. You’ve got to contact Mr. Muir personally.

Learning the Long Form is hard.
I tried to re-teach a player who had actually learned the Form 20 years ago. She gave up–plus sore hips.

I’ve been doing Tai Chi with a co-player for 10 years–he can’t get to the 2nd section–he keeps going on extended vacations.

One player out of hundreds completely learned it with me.
She discontinued it because of sore knees and took up Shibashi Qigong.

A master bagua teacher (40 years) hasn’t been able to learn the 24-Short Form in 2 years–He doesn’t believe in Qi or internal energy.

I start students with the bow stance.
Then my teacher had a 12 Form.
Then move to a 19-Form (David-Dorian Ross).
Then the 24-Form–pretty standard and portable everywhere.
Then a 22-Form.
And then the Long Form.

This summer I met a lady from Canada who has mastered yet another Long Form. In a week we were unable to iron out the differences.

So Long Form practitioners are far and few between.

Nevertheless, to me, it is well worth the journey.

Why?

Yesterday, after 3 years, one of my students in a Parkinson’s class (advanced Parkinson’s, Deep Brain Stimulated) dropped muscle rigidity and did a little “Cloud Hands” push-hands with “song,” opening and closing all joints, twisting, rotating, lengthening, bending. This is the essence that Bruce teaches. By-pass a dysfunctional Central Nervous System and use peng/liu/ji/an.

It’s worth it.

Unravel the puzzle, slowly, with patience and sincerity and you’ll find a treasure.

[Anonymous]

Hello Jim, I’m sure we’ve all noted significant differences between taught elements and Bruce’s final demonstration. Perhaps it’s more important to learn the essence and principles of Bruce’s teaching, rather than to look for a precise prescription and a ‘golden standard’ to aspire towards. It’s an art, not painting by numbers. Throughout he frequently highlighted various optional transitions, e.g., stepping forward or back into play the lute, and high pat of on horse etc.

[Anonymous]

Hi Colin,

Yes, I agree, it’s an art.

My background is in music and in computers where in the beginning you have to really do things as they were taught. Later on,
when you know what’s what, you grow by experimenting and trying other things.

I definitely heard we needed to do the form as it was taught because the steps are precise. That admonition, said very early on, is why I was asking.

I am very happy to just keep doing Old Yang as I know and understand it right now and will just drop the discrepancy question.

[Anonymous]

Hello Robert.

Thank you for your input.

I threw in the “36” because I had read in your reply to Month 15 transition from single whip to part wild horses mane which said, ” Bruce is teaching the 36 basic movements in the complete Yang style form.” Please, just ignore the 36 – I should not have added it.

In the 6 months before I started out with Dragon and Tiger, I actually read about QiGong, and researched many teachers including Dr. Yang, Jwing -Ming. For various reasons I settled on Bruce Franzis.

Prior to joining the Old Yang Style Tai Chi Training Circle I really agonized over whether to join or not. It was not an easy decision to make. There were many things to consider and time was a big factor. Would I have the time to watch all of the videos, look up and research the items I didn’t know and practice everything that was taught. Fortunately, after discussing all of my concerns with Energy Arts, I made my choice and here I am.

For me, as a student, asking about the course and its content is just another step in the learning process.

[Anonymous]

As a final post to my question, unless someone else replies . . . yesterday I was thinking about my topic and I remembered 2 things
1) Bruce did say, and showed, there were sometimes 2 or 3 ways to do a posture. He also pointed out the preferred way and added a teacher might say to do the 1st way for the 1st third, the 2nd for the 2nd third and the last way for the 3rd third. He said more but I hope you get the idea.
2) I know Bruce has had his share of physical accidents, breaking his back, etc.
I believe this explains many, though not all, of the variations I saw in month 18 video 18.

The other thing I wanted to say is what this course has done for me.
My practice of the Old Yang Style has in ways brought my family closer together. My wife and son see what I am doing and how it has changed me. It has also made my family and friends express and interest in learning more about taichi and qigong. My son asked me to teach him, “how to do taichi”.

For me, personally, it has done many things. I broke my back when I was 35 due to osteoporosis that I inherited from my grandmother. I also have a frozen left shoulder. My back and shoulder have started moving again. My back can twist and bend. I have gotten stronger and more flexible.

Energetically, I am feeling, and in some instances seeing, things that I have never experienced before. I cannot do a posture without feeling energy going up my back or down my front and this awareness really does help me to know when I am doing things correctly.

I recommend this course to everyone and truly believe no one teaches the neigong aspects as Bruce does.

So that’s it for me.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Hi Jim…

good luck on your journey (as a ‘lil bit’ of time goes by you may look back at this perspective and see change.. and then a bit later, new perspective.. ala:
[ “The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes. “
—Marcel Proust ] ok there is that (hopefully that will seem relevant, and not just a surface comment, or slogany
—
My thought from having grown-up in different martial arts schools (teachers show things, then get them to show it again? maybe- out of sequence… unclear what they are doing… and only rarely is the “window open” to ask questions and get clarification.. let alone do they “know” … so being able to rewatch- explicitly shown on video.. and by Bruce.. so that is my perspective from other teachings, and from following Bruce’s training for… a while).

-I find whatever it seems on-the-surface, isn’t quite it.. (I find these arts- the Taoist-neigung- sort of cause a reaction from what you do… sort of like a bank-shot in billiards…
move in a certain way, and a response arises, and that response nudges your actions a bit… internal fine-tuning.. [ of course, a lot of clearing and training/guidance-contact with one who knows-embodies it. — not having the mirror-coated with dust or a filter.. need release the gunk so you can see, when you look. ]

To me the questions of people saying- Bruce instructs how to do the movement in video X, and shows how to do martially in video Y, and then has a voice-over comment as showing/practice in flow (or showing him doing a section) in video Z — from training I’ve had (in martial-arts, also athletics/gymnastics, as well as academically), it seems clear that if you want to learn martial-applications, and then ask about video X or video Z ?? ie go to the place “__” info is covered (and just as in different sections a comment might be made that doesn’t “Seem” to connect- its just like being shown a movement1, and then movement2.. and when you try to link the two-moves the transition is clunky.. you try back and forth (even “fwd and backwards”) to groove it in, until the revelation.. (whether the movement, or the ideas expressed… just as the connective-tissue and alignments in the body may block how you should-be-able to move… also, the mind, likely, has thoughts that ‘block’ how you “make-sense-of-it”

–lastly: its like comparing “computers” -what are the significant components? (when playing golf, how many steps are taken between each hit of the ball? -when playing football, how many shots are taken on the goal, yet miss? (at the end of the game) ~ when “training” pushing hands (TuiShou), how many times does one lose center? (not competing, but training to devel)… all these are not the significant element, even though they are there.. but in golf, it is “how many times is the ball ‘hit’?” -football, how many actual scores, or -whether the ball touches the ground/or whether hands touch the ball (depending upon the football-type)
-ie its all about the games rules.. that game is being played..? -thus what is significant? so one layer, I’d say (Just one view)- do the moves precisely means, not sort-of XYZ.. ie facing fwd- nose, belly-button, front-toe and knee, pelvis and spine aligned and “front-hand” all directly in the same-direction, not sort-of.
next layer- if do the same movement 3 times, it is the same each time.. or if do the form in 3 repetitions- not have areas in each rep of the form that is different… ie one time brush knee is a little more ABC, then other times– single-whip clearly not the same- etc. (but if so, at least notice.. vs just variations ‘floppy’).
but then- the significant issue– the computers example- many would look and see three computers- two of the “cases” and brand of computer, the color the same, the third is different.. what is the game- are the first two the same? (cases, color and brand the same- and yet- different components “inside”- and different OS and software).. the third a totally different Looking, and yet has the same inner-components, and OS/software as one…..
(also- I know someone that rehabs computers- he has some “refinished” cases (tower-desktops, or laptops) sanded down and laquered.. or otherwise “emptied out” – and one could be sitting right next to another new computer, same outside look, or one with the “inside” replaced- given new-top of the line-reved up parts… how can tell?
–long way to tell the story, via the example, but the inside, like a bottle can have better, more optimized stuff-put-inside.. (and then beyond that, how can those “inside” be used- what can be done).. all this is based-upon the outside frame (bottle, wallet, computer case, or outer shape)….

so if you see the movement of “energy” (kinetic force and alignment, and flowing-dynamic Inward-outward, expanding-absorbing… twisting-spiral, heavy-light.etc)..
see and compare that — often even if the outer form changes (once the practitioner is stable and no longer varies each time…) but after that stage- the outer movements are the same, but the “energy” feeling path is hit or miss.. not the same path, and the same flavour-freq.. even a steady intensity.. (likewise have the stretchy-bounce- goldilock’s not too tight, nor too-loose- even as bend&stretch and turn and step.. how?) … look for that..
[hopefully that seed will plant and grow.] cheers- luck
___________
Below I copied part you wrote—-These two pts are great (lucky you (I’ve tried to bring up, and even encourage my relatives to do even little drills I’ve learned/adapted, and no interest. -even with applicable health issues.. sigh- so good for you:)

>> My practice of the Old Yang Style has in ways brought my family closer together. My wife and son see what I am doing and how it has changed me.
It has also made my family and friends express and interest in learning more about taichi and qigong. My son asked me to teach him, “how to do taichi”. <<

just two-cents: even having had these subjects presented, by Bruce, before- I have re-watched, and taken notes, thought above, then re-structured in notes, and re-watched come video.. even back in first section- etc. it seems many have rewatched once, or twice, even if isn’t clear.. so just a different way than I’d look at it.

[Anonymous]

Taokua B,

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate everything you, as well as Robert Hughes and Colin Hughes – that’s funny, this is the first time I noticed Robert and Colin are “Hughes”. See what re-reading, watching and listening will get you?

As I was saying, I appreciate everything you, Robert an Colin said in your replies.

Thank you for your insight.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Thank you in return.. (I also hadn’t noticed their name.. I saw their two word names as a unit, til I read your mentioning.. fascinating- I find- how we can notice some-things, and other-things slip-by, either blindspot, or subcon deter’d insignif.. until we do.. -which can read to this practice, and the results it can bring.. as well).

best of luck in your exploration, and unpeeling layers (or stacking them up- as the case-may-be). -cheers to all that reads here.

[Anonymous]

Greetings,
Upon reading what you wrote, I remembered time when I was despairing to find a teacher in NY.
Being a workaholic New Yorker, I rarely have time to practice full forms, and not having followed anyone else after having met Bruce in 1975 and been shown how much can be accomplished with how little. During this time he taught us a form by Chen Pan Ling, Dragon and Tiger Chi kung, and Dissolving. I specifically got some valuable special attention with Pi Chuan, the Reverse Punch from Tang Shuo Dao, and had the honor of being knocked around by him a few times, which taught me one of the most important lessons – to not lose my temper when fighting. I was an angry young man then now I’m just a cranky old one.
The point I would like to make is this. Take what you already know and practice the heck out of it. It almost feels like every lesson is in every technique.
Needless to say after all this, I have had ample opportunity to test my skill in a huge variety of situations, where I have been able to control things in the most humane way possible, even in the face of some serious adversity.
Peace,
Ray

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ray
and Jim, I hope you are progressing on the great tai chi journey.

Just to review this topic:
1. Bruce presents a medium length form,
not a Long Form. He explains why at Month 14, Session 40.
He has cut out most of the repetitions in Long Form.
He notes that less than 20% of players tackle the long form.

I note that like most long forms, that Elbow strike is left implicit (only Tchoung Ta-Tchen’s long, long form–120 movements–explicitly includes “Tsu” between Lift Hands and White Crane Spreads Wings–as “The Dragon Turns its Head.”)
However, more problematic is Bruce’s omission of the
“Sweep the Lotus” kick at the end of the Long Form.
a. it really challenges balance
b. breath and movement must be carefully synchronized
c. and you get to yell and loudly snap both hands on your leg (I love Yang, Jwing-Ming’s additional sweep kick.)
d. The sweep kick is one of the few fast movements in the Long Form.

Ray, why not go up to Boston and take a few lessons from Dr. Yang? Or get his streaming apps for about $80?

Nevertheless, Bruce’s medium form is packed with goodies.

Maybe I missed it on my first run-through or maybe it has recently been added to the course but now I find Bruce demonstrating his Old Yang Style medium form–
at Month 18, Session 18.
by the ocean–it is dramatic–spectacular–
Thanks Bruce.
Should be enough to keep any aspirant moving forward.

Elsewhere, (and I can’t find it at the moment) Bruce explained that the 2nd and 3rd sections of the form–medium and long–
rev-up the Qi exponentially:
Section 1 at 100 rpm
Section 2 at 200 rpm, and
Section 3 at 300 rpm.

This phenomena is very important to gain access to the deeply profound levels of Qi development.
The short forms–like the standard 24 form, even if done 3 times in a row for the same length of time as a long form–about 20 minutes, do not have this effect.

Theoretically this profound level could be experienced just with “Commencement.”

So why even bother going beyond this first movement?
Well, you’ve got to test out the profundity with all different kind of movements–
Section 1 is just linear.
Section 2 tests it with angles and kicks and
Section 3 tests it with complex, physically demanding and quick movements.

“Commencement” is the template for this profound nature of Qi.
Especially, the transition between the 4 basic energies
(peng/lu/ji/an).
Bruce notes that there is a circular movement between the energies at the transition points.

When raising hands, there must be down in the up,
there is also a duplex of yin and yang–
lower dantian is primarily yin and the lungs become primarily yang–
but both existing simultaneously–

not just simplex one-way communication links (first speaker: Roger, Over…second speaker: Roger, Out).

There in the lungs “Peng” energy rises and flows outward.
Now the foundation for “Ji” has been established.
The Qi bullet is ready to be fired out the fingers–straight ahead–BANG!!! Fajin.

Between the peng and the ji there is this tiny profound transition point–not a true point, but a circle.

Spiritually, not even a circle, but your inner spirit–
heart-mind creates the transition,
like the inner spirit in the wind,
Native American Indians could hear the spirit in the various seasonal winds–
after a retreat of 1,500 LONG miles and major battles and many skirmishes Chief Joseph heard the cruel, cold spirit of surrender in the north winter wind at the Bear’s Paw,
just short of the safety of the Canadian border,
a bitterness of spirit that not even buffalo would survive.

[Anonymous]

You said, “When raising hands, there must be down in the up,
there is also a duplex of yin and yang–
lower dantian is primarily yin and the lungs become primarily yang–
but both existing simultaneously–“

Really? I hadn’t even thought of that – though I had been thinking of – and trying to get my head around – how in many of the movements, perhaps all, the body is split into yang on 1 side and yin on the other . . .as well as opening/closing, etc on the left/right sides simultaneously.

One other thing I’ve been thinking about is what Wee Kee Jin says, “In Taiji the ‘opening’ and ‘closing’ originates from the ‘centre’, which is where the ‘tantien’ and the central axis meet. Not only does the opening expand from the centre, but the closing also contracts from there; – both are from the inside outwards.”

I sure wish I started this when I was a kid. lol  

[Anonymous]

Pretty hard to express such concepts in words.
And you have to distinguish physicality from internal energetics.

Physically, in raise hands you can use the difference between the lower body and the upper body to induce the feeling of simultaneous “in up there must be down.”

Lower body:
the legs bend, there’s compression of joints, energy is being stored.

Upper body:
arms lengthen/stretch, joints open, energy is being released.

In the Tai Chi Course Bruce makes this clear in the Wu Style.

Even within lower or upper body there is “down within up.”
In the ankles energy flows down the front of joint while at the area of the Achilles’ tendon energy flows up.
Furthermore, laterally, yang energy is flowing down the outside of the leg while yin energy is flowing up the inside of the leg–
all having a duplex of yin and yang within each.
Same story at the knees;
same story at the lead/hips.

The inverse is going on in the upper body.
The down is in the elbows, which causes the up/rising of the wrists.

It’s all rather fascinating.

Keeps the juices circulating everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Pretty hard to express such concepts in words.
And you have to distinguish physicality from internal energetics.

Physically, in raise hands you can use the difference between the lower body and the upper body to induce the feeling of simultaneous “in up there must be down.”

Lower body:
the legs bend, there’s compression of joints, energy is being stored.

Upper body:
arms lengthen/stretch, joints open, energy is being released.

In the Tai Chi Course Bruce makes this clear in the Wu Style.

Even within lower or upper body there is “down within up.”
In the ankles energy flows down the front of joint while at the area of the Achilles’ tendon energy flows up.
Furthermore, laterally, yang energy is flowing down the outside of the leg while yin energy is flowing up the inside of the leg–
all having a duplex of yin and yang within each.
Same story at the knees;
same story at the lead/hips.

The inverse is going on in the upper body.
The down is in the elbows, which causes the up/rising of the wrists.

It’s all rather fascinating.

Keeps the juices circulating everywhere.

[Anonymous]

I have been fortunate in having been taught some Hsing Yi, which is based on five basic techniques, and standing. Like chess the moves are simple, but the applications are limited only by the imagination of the practitioner. Standing makes you strong, and helps greatly in stilling the mind.
In Tai Chi there are a lot of moves and transitions between them, and there are variations of both, based on the knowledge of those before us. Practice the forms as best you can and as much as you can based on what you know at the time, increasing your understanding as your skill grows.
Be Here Now,
Ray

[Author]

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