Tui Sho and sparring issues

[Anonymous]

Hi.

I have some doubts and questions regarding to experiences I have had doing Tui Sho and sparring with other martial artists. Would be nice if Bruce himself could speaks about some of these topics in a Q&A video, it would make me quite happy.

In my TaiChi training group we usually place our main focus on finesse and precision, following that principle that says that it is so much better to move somebody using a small fraction of your force if you can. In fact, we are always trying to generate power using movement momentum, intention, internal bounces and dissipation of energy avoiding almost fanatically to resolve thing by merely contracting your body.

This training have been proving itself useful over time. I am used to sparring with karate practitioners (I myself am one of those, but we do not practice in a hard-robotic way as it is seen frequently but in a quite fluid one… this is out of this topic now). Doing free combat, “Yu kumite”, I have had many times what I call “magic moments”. When that moments happens, with almost no effort or no effort at all the other guy ends flying a few meters away, or get smoothly unbalanced or at least higly frustrated because all his attemps ends him becaming highly compromised. I have been able even to practice and frustrate my partner in a near distance with my eyes fully closed simply listening how his body and intentions were through skin contact listening. Analyzing those moments I have find always taiChi principles acting at the very core of the situation.

Is funny that my face and inner mental attitude is a happy-smile one when that is happening, as if the world was a great big joke to laugh at or to watch from a quiet place as what it is and nothing more… and that with a big guy in front of you wanting to punch you or make you to find your way to the floor. Curious. My everyday attitude frequently is far from being so relaxed and happy. I am talking about what I feel when that moments happens. Is like as if some planets align and something opens up

However, I have been having some unpleasant experiences doing TuiSho sparring with people from other groups. They usually assume a strong stance, place their arms in a bear actitude and from a static and rooted position use high discharges powered by sudden muscular contractions to make you lost your balance. The sensation is as they were not using a internal principles but only sudden muscular force discharges. I hace to say that people from this group use to train mainly with regional Tui Sho championships on mind. My teachers (both from karate and TaiChi) have little respect for championships and after watching some and meeting people who are devoted to them I also have realized that these events may have some positive aspects as to becaming ready for them is a goal that makes you to improve but also have many negative ones as technical simplification, lost of knowledge richness, big inflated egos hidden under speechs about humility, tons of mental tension and economical interest surrounding all of that. At least in my country, I talk about what I know.

The point is that when I spar with those bear-like TuiSho people in the best of cases and in a good day I am able to dissipate their sudden and violent contractions and nothing else and not all the time. I guess that the only way to support such dischargues is to integrate better my body through static stands training. I wonder how to get prepared to support such situations and being able to use them in my favour in a smooth way.

However, I would be quite happy to read some comments from you regarding this and the other things I have commented about.
Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Hello Andres,
Just twocents (a few sense), instructors and those that regularly-train combatatively in this system might be more relevant (but they, and others, don’t post as much on this forum.. per prior responses and inquiry)…
A few distinctions I’ve found that relates to this are:
Differentiation of being “soft” (Ch10 TaoTe) all the way from contact of Other through you to the ground (and also your mind), vs being “light” (the usual) which is often a highly-controlled hand so that the touch seems soft (but is really light) by the bones of the hand/fingers/wrist.. and the result is the arms/elbow/shoulder becomes very tense, the center (lower torso-abs) seems soft but is really let-go a bit.. and then hips and knees are tense…
If have from Contact-Pt (for ex your hand, or back or wrist, or forearm, or sh- whereever) all the way through and through the legs to the ground/soles.. bouncey-elastic sort of like a water-balloon.. -then learn how to respond in this structure, and most of all (as below) how you “react” to the shock-jolt reception/sensed.

The state of mind- the “coming-from” (ie neuro-science calls it “state-dependant recall and skill-acquisition” or if you explicitly “talk to yourself step-by-step” and then try and snap-react.. different system.. or train it “snap-react” and then try and “do it explicitly” also (the old, write-up directions on how you tie a shoelace vs just do it)… but even more the feeling-state of ExchangingFlow… vs feeling Threatened.. the burst-shock-jolt. and body goes arghhh, even if you “know its ok”.. then the skills need to be in that mind-set (thus could train in that, OR the internal-MA method, of train being sparked, another startle-pushing, etc.. and staying calm… and accepting and flowing that Kinetic-push..) etc.

---

Both of the above relate to the Tension in Mind (thought- look, “fix where things are” .. decide how-to re-act and boom… OODA loop.. and very tense… sort of like someone placing out pieces on a table or bulletin-board arranging to represent their thoughts and someone moving pieces around.. argh- as it is an externalizing of mental-pattern, move-breaks.. likewise, see where things are, things stay for a sec as you make choice and start to react, if (when) things shift during that… overwhelm etc.. thus Tension..
Can let things flow and slip around even as you look here and there and back again and things are “uncertain” (or even unclear) and yet still be competent? That can be a mind state of Relaxed (soft, and yet alive and filled-up.. “sung” not collapsed)..

reason for all the above- in the last point, I’ve found many do “soft-work” and they are mentally and emotionally (espec Socially-role interacting) in a Disconnected manner.. they are “there, but not there” … if then Challenged by “non-cooperative”.. need to be there.. so click need “Connect:” vs being sort of not there…. (and then a whole different drill than you’ve been practicing…)

……….
If fully soft- (body, and Mind, even eye-balls, and stance-root–) thus any change by Other, you feel all the way through (in your system, and you feel changes all the way through theirs….)- if “surf” that (assuming in Contact, vs starting non-touch)… then just ride, and either arc around, engulf, or bounce it out, or capture their kinetic-force on you and act such that it builds from that (not as a different action, but A) starts from their beginning… and then you shape that continuation… and as C) you see how that changes their structure, and your’s (and you react/adjust to your structure during this)… and thus the Relationship between you changes.. (A, B, C.. like 123.. and stay present as that ends, or if during that they jolt another.. the cycle just jumps again into that that ABC, 123).
easy? just a specific skill set.. (so need to develop.. but if aren’t training that skill, then try and test it, hard.. likewise if the criteria was you need to be tense.. etc)
but advantage of having a person– ready to burst, discharge, even before they do, they tense and their entire stance/balance and aiming points to the line they prepare for… then as they go, you can feel a sort of shake through their entire as they link-up and activate .. both these steps proceed the actual burst… (if “wait” .. mental-soft and present, “Hawk circling” or “Cat watching mousehole”.. whether soon or longer, this change arises and changes the system between you…- can then Disrupt their system (~their balance-align) and/or change your structure to alter the ‘line they are lining-up’, and/or even add a force of yours… can be slight -or- a push of your own..

Anyway- above just relating to how all the aspects of practice can integrate, or contrast (does static, and dynamic, reacting and “doing” Martial-partner and meditation… do they are link up, or is the mind-state, “state-dependent recall of the skill” (not as an ideal, or perspective, but what ‘mode’ you body-mind is in while skill is learned, then when skill is trained/drilled, then when skill is tested/used (those three are often differently. in some skills, but compare to “athletics” and practice/workout vs a match/game.. ).. thus if “ext’l” amp up, but then if you start to think of a technique (or even think back on a workout session) you system will jump into that state.. (if “reality based” whatever that means- is sparking adrenaline… and train jumped-at do, then as go home for a session.. PTSD? think back on a conversation or training-skill and then amps you into adrenaline mode— as downside to that method…

Thus if learn calm, and drill disconnected, and try and do it when some bursts at you… not the same.. but if you train (in your 70% rule) someone bursting at you and stay soft-calm, aware and yet respond competently (for/with the skill you are learning, whatever it is).. (per 70%: at first that may be gentle, less that would startle or have any part of your system create “strength”… even if you can deal with more.. (as stabilize your system as you find the parts that “react” until they are no longer there to react.. then you can ramp up a bit, and then more and then more- etc)

its like triggering, and ext’l dissolving that (even the Spiralling Ebody dissolving influence).. but whatever arises let-go, and yet not Disconnect/ SpaceOut fog.. Disassociate (I know i”m repeating from what I wrote above, but I hope this makes sense- all supposed to loop together and interrelate).

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As a point I think much of the above relates to your other post; in regards to dissolving (and your system responding to tension afteraffect.. and whether it might -possibly- be related to pushing an affect (make the system go here… “sinking” or force it down.. then it seems to rise, but really elastically feel rebound.. more the tissues.. and also from force, vs its stability)..
most of all the pushing, force, “light touch” vs “soft” etc. (body, action, and mind.. etc)
[water course way] but this all comes down to fdbk, from one that is reacting to your system- live, vs disassoc (how can really describe what you are experiencing so that one can give adjustments, espec as the “important pts” we need develop, are aspects that we ‘currently” can’t sense (in our blindspots)

best wishes

[Anonymous]

a bit additional—-
___
—This came out a bit compact, but I hope to trigger a shift in this subject:

Note in regards to “waiting” (being in the state like a Hawk soaring, watching with ‘eagle-eye’ for the slightest movement down-below, ready to dive.. or a Cat watching the mouse-hole… if nothing happens, continues to watch, but if something does happen, the watching/waiting doesn’t stop.. even as the energy is injected into the mix and adjusts, and thus you ride/surf it…stay in each micro-moment that Watching.

Don’t turn-off and make a plan and act.).. How be in that same watching mode, in that state that one can be when body is still, while in motion and action (and not a static, pattern act. but in motion/dyn)

(whether shifting from foot to foot, and/or stepping, ala the TaiChiChuan form, doing a TuiShouPattern– do with change in pacing/speed and shape unpredicatably.. nearly the same, but only enough unhabitual to slightly push and challenge, and yet still “hold it together, a bit”.. )
If one’s training, instruction also includes the body-mode of whole-body movement… – let alone the slight coiling and tiny-rotation of each part, within each part of the shifting (vs usually just rear to front shift ‘click’..
– rather, have the dragon-body aspect.. not only continually adjusts your balance and structure, it also awakens the ability to be aware and act is more micro-moments during the movement —vs only at beginning and end of the movement.)

**** ~~
Metaphor came to me as riding a whitewater raft down the river.. the goal is to stay ontop-of–the-raft.. if it is calm, just ride (yet still keep a look out for rocks, visible, or hidden below surface.. minimal steering to adjust path).. if it become churn-chop, still keep a look up, as adjust.. more freq adjustments.. but just as raft continues on path..
only Trying to stay ontop, ie not flipping-over, nor get knocked out of raft.. and a little awareness of path on, and downstream would lead-to.. to choices of where project-intersection. (but whether in easy section, or vigorous section, want to stay calm as can… both for efficiency, as well as energy-conservation… each in the raft auto adjusts and watches out for each other, to the degree each is “present” and not locked-into tunnel-vision (which sees less, and also triggers panic).
……
a post in the General Discussion folder might relate?
http://www.energyarts.com/forum/internal-martial-arts-effectiveness-limited-training

[Anonymous]

Thanks a lot for such a complete and quite dense answer. It gave me a lot to think about. I hope to have find some answers that I am now integrating into my practice.

[Anonymous]

Hi Andres,

I love your attitude about Tui Sho.
In my opinion your “happy-smile” and seeing it as a “great big joke to laugh at” is in harmony with the attitude expressed in the “tao te ching,”
“The soft and weak conquer the hard and strong.”

Taokua’s whitewater rafting metaphor is also apt and in harmony with the Tao (happy-smile–TAOkua on the Tao.)
(The “tao te ching” is also called the Water-course Way):

“The highest sage is like water.
Water benefits the ten thousand beings
yet contends with no one.
It flows in places that people reject…”

I don’t trust any player who does not reject hardness,
especially in the learning tool of tui sho–
they can seriously hurt you for life,
I just politely bow out.
There will be nothing to learn from medieval jousting.

Just my aged experience.

[Author]

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