Why all the secrecy?

[Anonymous]

Why is this stuff still secret? Why is so much information held back?

Before the invention of gun powder and automatic weapons, this may have had a rationale basis but does it still make sense today?

I don’t agree with some opinions that we’re being strung along “…with endless walking practices with the excuse that it really comes form (sic) a 3000 year old tradition of walking meditation, and who deconstructs the art into a mild version of therapeutic softness that relies on your having to put things into it, like pulsing, lengthening, spiralling energy…”.

I don’t believe you can give this away. You could spell it all out as explicitly as possible and less than 1 in 10,000 students would ever put the time and effort in to “get it”. There is so much benefit to be gained, so why hold back? Is it just a question of intellectual property? I’ve got the recipe for Coke and I’m not sharing? Would you really be injured if you did something wrong?

I’m so tired of hearing that I’m going to explode if I do a movement incorrectly. I haven’t done a single movement “correctly” yet.

I’m tired of hearing that you need a master to guide you through the process. It may be true, but I translate that to mean – you don’t have a chance in hell of learning this on your own. Why am I studying then?

I’m tired of incomplete explanations and vague statements with four thousand possible meanings. It just can’t be that complex. No one would have figured it out.

Bagua still strikes me as brilliant. The more I understand the deeper my appreciation becomes and the more systematic, organized, and calculating the system appears to be.

What doesn’t make sense to me is the secrecy.

[Anonymous]

Hi, James.

I think the secrecy thing is a multi-layered topic. I feel like Bruce has lifted the veil of secrecy to an amazing amount in the Bagua Mastery Program as well as in the Training Circle.

However, in his recorded answer to a question posed on the Training Circle, he flatly declared that he won’t answer any questions about inner alchemy. I assume this is because he feels it would be dangerous.

When I first started studying tai chi and meditation, it was with a senior student of a Yang family lineage holder and Lung Men master. He taught all the tai chi stuff openly, but the meditation he taught openly was basically an introduction to the microcosmic orbit. If you wanted to get beyond the basics, you had to “enter the door” and become a disciple. I never did that, though I practiced that meditation technique for several years. This teacher was in 70s at the time and the real deal. At one point he said at a workshop, through my teacher (who was fluent in Chinese) that a real Taoist master would never teach alchemy openly. I think there were a lot of reasons for that, not least that he felt alchemy could be dangerous. There were also some murky cultural reasons.

I think things are changing to a certain degree. Like you, I hope I can learn to a deep level studying mostly on my own. Otherwise, as you say, what’s the point? I also agree that, at a certain point or level, this stuff shouldn’t be complex – it should be simple, however deep and profound. Anyway, I really hope I can follow this path to my completion, so to speak, whatever that means and however I can do it. Will we need a teacher? Someone who can lift the veil? I assume so, at whatever level and through whatever medium. I’m hoping so, anyway.

See you further up the mountain.

Best wishes
Matthew

[Anonymous]

I read the Chris Chappell article. Not too impressed. It’s funny he used to have a picture of Kumar up on his website. Many feelings seem to get hurt in the internal martial arts world. Moreso than sparring injuries I’m sure!
Anyways, I think that opening & Closing, spiraling, particularly dissolving are super helpful for sparring. That stuff gives you an edge that’s unlike any other. of course if you never spar you’ll suck at it but if you do it you’ll find that Nei Gung pays fine dividends.
Chris seems to disagree and I can see his point.There are people stuck in Zombie mode who are so focused on the details that they end up walking all stiff and clunky. That’s lame but I’ve seen it in many other schools. Even among those who are critiquing this one. LOL.
There are many groups and many people who do ba gua poorly from my perspective. But who gives a damn? If its fun and you get something from it, then why get all wrapped up in it as an identity?

That’s where Chris and co. end up going wrong. They think of themselves as having some high standard and that they have the “real” thing. Anyone who thinks that needs to rethink it. Chinese martial arts are vast and confusing and jumbled up and there’s no clear answers to any of the questions. You need to find the ones that work for you not sit around criticizing everyone elses.
Then again that would ruin the fun and it wouldn’t be CMA anymore.

[Anonymous]

Bagua is fun.

I agree with you, James, on this:
“you need a master to guide you through the process.”
I, too, translate that to mean – you don’t have a chance in hell of learning this on your own.

But who cares?
I’ve been practicing Bruce’s style for 4 years–
at a snail’s pace. Since starting I’ve seen at least 4 other styles. It’d be hard to guess that they are all “bagua.”

But, generally, my alignment has improved and I have a better awareness of energy channels–
exactly what I wanted to get.

And I always enjoy reading your take on bagua.

[Anonymous]

Hi Jess,

Thanks for all your thoughtful replies. I particularly appreciated your point of view of having fun and enjoying CMA. It may get lost in my posts but I really enjoy practicing Bagua. Like everyone else, I just want to learn and understand as much as possible. It is probably obvious from my posts that I get frustrated with groping my way through the dark. What may not be as obvious is that I’ve also been preparing for the day when Bruce is no longer available. He could retire any time and there isn’t anyone who can teach Spiraling, Bend the Bow, or Gods (never mind Bagua and meditation). Who else would do you believe has the knowledge that Bruce has? Anyway, I still don’t think most people appreciate just how unique Bruce’s experience is.

With that rant said, it might be helpful for beginners to hear some of the underlying assumptions that guide my practice. These were initially leaps of faith and since have been verified through lots of practice and dedication.

1) Liu Hung Chieh was the real deal. He knew the Taoist arts as deeply as just about anyone possibly could.
2) Liu transmitted his knowledge to Bruce as completely as he could in the time they had together.
3) Bruce does exactly what he says he will do: whatever he teaches is genuine and taught as completely as possible; however, he has no obligation to teach you where or how it fits into the scheme of things (that is reserved for lineage disciples) nor does he have any obligation to teach you the whole system.
4) The 16 part neigung is fundamental to of all of the Taoist arts.
5) Neigung is NOT the art.
6) Any practice (when done correctly) should make you more relaxed, balanced, and connected.
7) Separate and combine.
As above, so below.

These underlying assumptions guide my daily practice. Every one of these assumptions has huge ramifications. Every student at some point is going to have to decide whether they believe them or not. You could add these less abstract principles:

9. If you don’t know what to do next, practice what you know.
10. You haven’t practiced enough unless you can do it instantaneously and with a relaxed mind.
11. The Taoist always teach/learn something the easiest way that most people will “get it”.
12. A solid foundation in Taoist meditation can substitute for a support system: it can save your butt.
13. Bagua is a system.

[Anonymous]

Hey James,

I was wondering if you could elaborate more on point #12.

How has your knowledge of Taoist Meditation served as a substitute for a support system?

Janak

[Anonymous]

Hi Janak,

There is a lot to that statement and a bunch of ways I could answer your question.

On the simplest and possibly vaguest level, this stuff just gets weird.

Do people understand the implication of feeling their 8 bodies? You have to lose the sense that you are your physical body. By the time this is possible you can feel everything around you. But it can get really confusing: am I feeling you, what you are projecting, or is it me, or is what I’m feeling just your reaction to what I put out in the first place and now we are in some kind of feedback loop where we each co-create the feeling?

This is real. One of the last seminars I attended with Bruce was in London. He was teaching chi gung tuina on the last day. Bruce is working on this young kid who was a new to Bruce’s system. Bruce is doing some of the most complicated tuina I’ve ever seen him do. He asks the kid to describe what is happening (just like he does at every seminar). The poor kid is so overwhelmed that he can’t answer. I’m standing there and can feel everything Bruce is doing to the kid inside my body just like Bruce is working on me. I start telling the group what Bruce is doing in exacting detail. Bruce just affirms that I’m right and continues.

Later, I tried to sort out whether I was really feeling what the kid felt or Bruce’s transmission of what he was doing and what it felt like to him (Bruce). That’s just f’d up!

For a while I was waking up to start my morning practice and didn’t recognize who I was. I was fine with this. I was healthier than ever. I had my memories but I was changing so fast (clearing crap out of my system) that I was losing the sense of who I was. I believe that meditation saved my butt. I was able to navigate this phase by being comfortable with not knowing what was happening and just noticing it like Huh? That’s weird. And then, I’d move into my practice. No big deal.

I couldn’t have done this without a good foundation in Taoist meditation. Taoist meditation develops the necessary maturity to take responsibility for what you are experiencing – no exceptions.

A lot of people scoff at religious groups these days. I believe one of their primary functions was to provide support when members start going through weird stuff and more importantly keep them on the right track. You need some way to navigate and keep grounded. Taoist meditation can provide that grounding. Few people are interested though, because frankly, it sucks growing up.

I hope this makes some sense.

Take care.

[Anonymous]

Hey James,

Thanks for writing that up, I enjoy reading your posts on the forums. I don’t study bagua but I love meditation, so I perked up when you mentioned it.

I’ve also noticed the increasing amount of weirdness as my practice gets deeper. And I’ve noticed more and more that when I feel something I have to puzzle out what is going on. When I’m having a really bad day, is it something inside of me? Is it because of something going on in the people around me? Or is it because someone I have a strong bond with is halfway around the world thinking about me?

I used to be one of the people that scoffed at religious groups. I was raised in a Hindu family. We went to many different churches and saw many different traveling teachers, sadhus, etc. For the most part it was worthless. The blind leading the blind. People that had made no significant spiritual progress.

So I assumed that since everything I saw was devoid of value, that this must be true of all religous groups.

I’m really glad that I got to meet and study with Bruce. Listening to him describe details of Hindu practice. How to properly do mantra practice, or how to do mudras, or how to properly charge a murti. The 8 limbs of yogic practice. The bridge between Hatha yoga and meditation. All this made me realize that there were genuine spiritual traditions in Hinduism. It’s just that I had never been exposed to any of it.

As Bruce taught more about Dzogchen and Tibetan Buddhism. Or talked about Ghostic christianity, or mystical traditions inside of other major religions. You got the sense that genuine spirituality exists in all the major religions. It’s just that most people are not fortunate enough to run into the real deal.

It’s true that undertaking a spiritual journey can be brutally difficult but I think a lot more people would be up for the struggle, if they were only famaliar with the real deal

Janak

[Anonymous]

5) Neigung is NOT the art.

I liked this one. Perhaps because this is what I’ve been thinking about for last year or so.

So what is the art? And how do you get from neigong to the art?

[Anonymous]

Hsing-I, Tai Chi, and Bagua organize the material in 3 distinctly different ways. I’ve posted how each is generally organized on the Hsing-I, Tai Chi, and Bagua forums.

Bruce also says this so. I assume it is true. I have never heard Bruce explain this statement but he has made general comments over the years. I practice each in a completely different manner.

In the most general terms, Tai Chi organizes around the lower tan tien. You can graft meditation onto it, but that was probably added later. Who knows. It is organized around yin/yang opposites that are intended to create or help you find the place where yin and yang are born. I’d just call it peace.

To find how Bagua is organzed think about the hand and foot: they are always doing the same thing.

[Anonymous]

This is an oversimplification, but you could say that Hsing-I’s center is the spine, Tai Chi’s is the lower tan tien, and Bagua’s center is far more…universal.

[Anonymous]

I’m getting to the point where there is no difference between practicing Bagua and practicing meditation. They are becoming the same thing. In fact, Bagua accelerates meditation significantly. Opening and closing from the core channel is accelerating the effectiveness of dissolving.

One spiritual interpretation of the trigrams is to equate the Fire trigram with the moment that yang changes to yin. This is manifested in the spinal cord and later more completely using the central channel. The point is you find the spinal cord. The Water trigram is the moment where yin changes to yang. It is the “yin phase” of Gods. The process of softening and turning the spinal cord to water is the same process that Liu described to Bruce using the metaphor of the glass of water and the red dust.

You want the spinal cord to be like clear water. When it is you have great clarity. The red dust is all of the crud we accumulate. Dissolving and Bagua clear the cruft away. This is where you really start converting all of the red dust back to emptiness.

The daily practice of Bagua and the constant shrinking and growing from the central channel act like a filtration system. Just going in and out of the core channel can clear a lot. When something big comes up, I prefer to sit and use inner dissolving to continue the clearing process. Bagua kind of stirs up the red dust. You walk and practice. Sometimes you get the clarity of clean water. Sometimes you stir things up and find more of the crap that you have to deal with in order to grow up. It can be tough when that happens.

Anyway, Bagua is an incredible container for all of the neigung and all of the meditation Bruce has taught over the years.

[Author]

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