Why Bagua is Superior to Tai Chi

[Anonymous]

This thread is specifically dedicated to Robert. It will take multiple posts to fully explain why I consider Bagua to be superior to Tai Chi. This will be tedious in written form. If I make it out to California for the Bagua Mountain Palm Change event, I’ll be happy to spend some time with anyone who is interested explaining how I create power in Chen style Tai Chi, the Wu and Yang styles, Hsing-I, and finally Bagua. They all use the Tai Chi space for power, but each of them is unique in how they are organized internally. If you don’t know what emptiness is, you probably won’t understand most of what I’m talking about; however, I think it will make a lot more sense why I think everything else is a subset of Bagua.

The only thing I’d ask is that you don’t try to argue with me. If you don’t agree, fine. If you think I’m an idiot, fine. I don’t need to know. I’m working through this like everyone else. This is just my perspective at the moment – like it or not.

My plan is to start with Wu style Tai Chi first. If I were teaching in person, I’d start with Chen style Tai Chi because I think its approach is dramatically better. The way that I organize the primary energies of Wu style Tai Chi is much easier to describe in words so I’ll start there and then start building up the complexity.

Keep in mind that I’ve never been “taught” any of this. Also, remember that I built up my body over a very long period of time. If you try to replicate what I’m doing without the requisite foundation, you are very likely to injure yourself. So, let’s be adults and let the 70% rule – rule!

[Anonymous]

Everything in this post applies to Wu style Tai Chi.

I’ve asked lots of people over the years how they create peng, gi, lu, and an in Tai Chi. I’ve never gotten a satisfactory answer and have always been struck by the incredible lack of clarity on the subject. Plenty of people have defined what these energies are, but I can only think of one book that attempted to really explain how to create them and for me, it came up short. If you are going to reduce peng, gi, lu, and an to opening and closing of the joints in the four quadrants of the body, that seems like an extremely limited use of the 16 part neigung. Most importantly it doesn’t include the use of the Tai Chi space which Bruce has said is essential to understanding energy flow. After all, peng, gi, lu, and an are energies.

I don’t think I can explain how to access the Tai Chi space so my explanation will likely be as lame as any other.

Peng is a rising yang energy. Although it is a rising energy it is created by moving energy downward internally. This is consistent with Bruce description in “The Power of Internal Martial Arts and Chi” page 128 of the second edition. I use the Tai Chi space and make energy drop down to create the up. This is vertical peng. In a more simplistic form it moves downward in a line. For now, I’ll leave it at that. The upward peng is directly proportional to the amount of energy you can move down. Most people can’t do this because their bodies are inaccessible, disconnected, blocked, or in disarray. Training opens the channels that the downward energy has to travel, connects your mind to it, clears blockages, and aligns the energy so it is moving in concert with your intent. This is much easier said than done.

From one perspective this is just an interplay of yin and yang. You can’t play with yin and yang if you don’t know what they are and you won’t know what they really are until you start experiencing emptiness and the Tai Chi space (again Bruce’s words not mine).

Imagine a pen pointing down. You move energy down along the length of the pen to create peng. You create down. The up is a natural effect of the downward movement.

This is the first an most primary energy. Everything else could be considered a variation of it or built on it. Moving energy down clears this line and makes it accessible meaning you can work with it. For example, horizontal peng moves this line in space. Imagine the upright pen staying upright but moving it through space.

When I create the energy of gi, I move this line backwards which creates an opposite reaction going forward. I also add the force vectors triangulating from the side channels toward the center. This can be done in several ways. One is to wrap the side channels. Another moves the vertical lines of the side channels. To keep it simple, I wrap as the vertical line moves move back. You can add vertical peng by simultaneously moving energy down the length of the line as it moves backwards in space.

Lu just reverses everything. The line moves forward and the side channels wrap backwards.

An is the opposite of vertical peng. So, you move energy upward instead of down. That’s why in commencement the hands move last. The energy rises all the way up the body from the feet through the torso to the shoulders down the arms to the wrists and finally through the hands.

Tsai just combines lu and an. So, as energy comes up the line as you move the line forward in space and the side channels wrap backwards.

This line is energetic. It isn’t physical, but in the beginning you can use a very physical interpretation to approximate it. In my opinion, Chen style has a much better approach to learning how to create and use these lines of force. Unfortunately, most people never graduate beyond this stage.

[Anonymous]

Everything in this post applies to Chen style Tai Chi.

Let me preface this by saying I’ve never studied Chen style Tai Chi with any teacher. This organization is based on watching a 5 minute video on YouTube of someone who appears to be a well known, respected master perform and teach the basic structure and method of Chen style Tai Chi. I’ll use his method and stance layered with my interpretation/organization of the energetics.

The basic method starts in a fairly low horse stance. Draw a line on the floor. The right heel should touch the line. It is forward of the line. The toes of the left foot touch the line. The left is slightly behind the line. The weight favors the right side. I keep the feet basically parallel.

The most important element of this stance is keeping the area of the hips and kwa open and expansive. There is no need for any muscle to be used. This should be like stone archway transferring all of the force down to the ground. stones don’t contract. The sacrum is effectively the keystone. If you know how to create the expansiveness of yang energy in the Heaven palm, this is where it is being done. If you don’t know what that energy feels like, I believe this stance is one of the best ways to find it.

The right hand is trained first and then you switch sides. The left side would be a mirror image of what I just described so I’ll only describe this from the right side and you can figure out the left side on your own.

Step 1: Extend the right arm on a line that runs roughly from the arch of the left foot to the midriff of your right side. There is a precise location but in the beginning you may not feel it. If you are used to feeling lines of force in the body, the precise location won’t be hard to find.

As above so below. In this case, as below so above. In the same way that the hips and kwa are yang and expansive, the shoulders have to maintain expansiveness. Here the spine is the keystone and you can use your yang lengthening to facilitate the correct energy. The yang of the shoulders and hips must be maintained throughout the exercise. If you collapse either, you won’t find the tai chi space we are looking for.

Step 2: In contrast to the yang expansiveness in the shoulders and hips, pull the right elbow toward the right midriff along the line going toward the left foot. This is a pure yin action. The better you can expand energy of the hips and shoulders, the less this feels like a contraction. It should eventually feel like the elbow is sucked into empty space. The midriff is yin. The hips and shoulders are yang. This is a lot like the water trigram. The yang lines are going from hip to hip (bottom line) and shoulder nest to shoulder nest (the top line), and the elbow (one of the small lines of the middle line) is going toward the empty space.

Step 3: Turn to your left without moving the right side channel in space. The right side channel is really winding up like wringing a towel. It is fine to rotate the side channel, but it isn’t suppose to move horizontally through space. The is the foundation of stillness movement.

Step 4: Move the right side channel down as the hand goes out and returns to the beginning position.

That’s the basic exercise. It is really complicated to describe but it is fairly simple. In the beginning this will be very physical (jing phase). Later you should be able to find the energy movement and the Tai Chi space.

Once you find the Tai Chi space, you can start to use this “structure” in a bunch of different geometric planes that will open your channels in all directions: left/right, up/down, forward/back, in/out. This is way too complicated to describe without illustrations or video, but it is doable. It is also easier (IMO) to find and do, because it starts with lines of force which are far more concrete and easier to feel.

The yang expansiveness teaches you peng. The receptive (in contrast to yang) teaches you yin. Keeping the side channel from moving, teaches you stillness and is a stepping stone to finding emptiness. Moving the structure to other planes allows you to create power in any direction using the Tai Chi space.

[Anonymous]

Thanks James.
Your discussion has helped me jell the “Tai Chi space.”

Currently I’m working through Bruce’s recent Month 10 on the Yang Style Long Form, specifically “Repulse the Monkey.”
As with previous lessons, Bruce addresses the energies of each posture.
(You’re right, no one else does.)

I have also worked through Bruce’s complete Bagua Mastery Course.
Similarly he has addressed how the four energies are created as well as the 16 Neigong.

So with Bruce there is no lack of treatment about the theory of both Tai Chi and Bagua.
I see the same process going on in Tai Chi that goes on in Bagua.

However, as we both know, there’s a big difference between knowing the theory and actually feeling the energies.
I can only refine and improve my feeling the “Tai Chi space” day by day.
Your comments help.

I should say that I really don’t call it “The Tai Chi space.”
I call it “emptiness”–where everything and anything is included.
Monk Dogen calls it “uji,” being-time.
Nishida calls it “basho,” a place where everything appears or establishes as it is.
Absolute nothingness.
For me, it jells in the root of the empty leg when energy is driven down the empty leg into the heel.
It occurs at the completion of an exhalation, instantaneously, before the next inhalation.
This is the time and place of “doing without doing,” non-doing.
This is when and where energy is created.
It is NOW that the energies and neigong flow.
Then we might influence it (guide or lead it) with the Yi, intent.
This “intent” is as much You as it is Me.
My intent is nothing without Your intent–it’s an I-Thou relationship.
Our personal interactions can only occur if both the I and the Thou are situated in the same environment, as personalities.
My environment is more heavily weighted with Tai Chi.
Yours is more weighted with Bagua.
Nevertheless, we seem to be practicing in the same environment.

Hey, I hope this comment gets through to you.
I written several other long comments on my iPhone which have been infinitely processed and then disappear.
This one is being processed on my iMac.

Cheers
Happy Year of the Monkey

Robert
Post Falls, Idaho

[Anonymous]

Robert,

It is nice to hear from you. I just booked my trip to El Cerrito. Hope to see you there.

I hope I get a few minutes to talk to Bruce while I’m there. I have questions about emptiness vs. the Tai Chi space. Bruce seems to use the phases interchangeably but I wonder if emptiness is really wu ji, then yang and yin are differentiated, then they mix and form the Tai Chi space, which then creates the four, which then creates the Bagua.

I’m not sure. Just another in a long list of questions.

[Anonymous]

Everything in this post applies to Hsing-I.

I’m not going to go through a long description of how the fists or forms of the Hsing-I develop power. I doubt anyone on this forum really cares. I posted a really long explanation on the Hsing-I mastery forum that explains a bunch of structure that was the key to bend the bow including many levels that Bruce has never taught. The formatting got all screwed up when I posted it and I don’t think anyone ever tried to decipher the post.

Instead of rehashing that here, I’m going to refer to the Chen style post and simply suggest that I can take you through each fist and explain how the power is developed in almost exactly the same way as Chen style Tai Chi; however, the outer shape looks a little different. Once it is shown you’ll be able to see the similarities even though they are less obvious than the way Chen style teaches the basics.

Further, the Hsing-I fists can be interpreted as moving the basic “structure” to different planes. Split utilizes the same mechanics as the Chen style basic exercise. The initial extension of the front arm serves the same purpose as the beginning hand position in Step 1. The pulling back of the elbows toward the midriffs is step 2. The turning of the torso to one side facilitates the winding up of the side channel in step 3. The wound side channel is moved down with the same requirements so stillness and movement are created and you return to the same position on the opposite side.

Here the feet are trained sooner which I think is harder. You use standing in San Ti to find the same peng expansive energy but again I think it is much harder in this position than the Chen basic exercise.

Once the side channels become accessible, you can change the plane of the “structure” and use it to open up and down along the central channel. Then open front to back in beng chaun. And so on…

Like I said it is tedious to describe this without illustrations or video. The Tai Chi space is utilized exactly the same way but the stepping adds a different dynamic (even more so in Bagua).

[Anonymous]

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming
in “Taijiquan Theory” describes it this way:

1. Wuji

2. Taiji State

3. Yin-Yang State (Two Poles or Polarities)

4. Yin and Yang

5. Taiji Four Phases

6. Taiji Eight Trigrams

7. Taiji Sixteen Trigrams

1. Wuji is emptiness
(According to the “I-Ching” originally the universe was in a Wuji state.)
2. In the Taiji state there is pivotal action
(but not yet two polarities)
(this is the mother of yin and yang, the tendency to divide: see his book, “Tai Chi Chuan, Classical yang Style)
3. This is the standard Yin-Yang icon
4.

Opps, gotta go

Bob

3.

[Anonymous]

I finally think I know what 1-4 are about. I’m still working out 5,6, and 7: there are a lot of possibilities but I’m not sure if I’ve got them correct yet.

One thing that might not be clear in my previous posts is that 1-4 are the basis for all of the power generation in all of the internal arts. How they find it and how each art organizes the material is different and where I’m making distinction (as arbitrary as it may be) about superiority.

Personally I think the Chen style method would have been the easiest to use to find the Tai Chi space with Hsing-I being a close second if someone had explained it. Wu/Yang style Tai Chi are the most difficult for me. Bagua is more complete and hence challenging simply because it does more. Although it should be pointed out the Wu managed to graft Taoist meditation onto Wu style Tai Chi so if that counts, Bagua and Wu style as meditation are on par.

[Anonymous]

to continue:

After describing Wuji, Tai Chi State and Yin-Yang State Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming continued:

He says that “Taiji” (Dao/Li/God) is neither
1. Wuji (emptiness)
nor
3. Yin-Yang (the taiji icon)

Taiji is the power (caused by mind) that distinguishes Yin from Yang, but Yin and Yang are not yet manifested.)

4. Yin and Yang
From the Taij Yin-Yang icon,
Yin and Yang are separated and manifested.
Yin is the internal manifestation.
Yang is the external manifestation.

5. Taiji Four Phases
Then the Eight Trigrams evolve out of the Two Polarities (Yin-Yang icon)
When the mind of Taiji is manifested, the result is physical action.

To me, the “Tai Chi Space” seems someplace around 1 and 2–kind of like Dr. Yang’s “Taiji” mind that differentiates Yin and Yang. But it is not Xin mind, only Yi mind.

Philosopher Martin Heidegger (1889-1976 ) sees this arising from the “earth” as the place where the arising of everything that arises is brought back and sheltered,
a place where the nonduality of discrimination and differentiation is in polarity with nondiscrimination.
(Poetically this is Mountain. The place where mountains are mountains arising from the earth but still part of the earth, rising beyond the clouds to the source of Yang energy.)

6 and 7 and beyond are the cascading variations from the mutual interactions of Yin and Yang through the mediating function of Taiji.

Personally, experientially, I have only experienced step 1. Wuji as the source of Qi flow.
I surrender/yield to this emptiness and let it function without trying to control it.
I don’t feel that it is “power” or anything else.
It is not “superior” to anything.
I only experience this while doing the Yang Style Long Form.

I haven’t experienced it while doing Bagua–although I can see where it could invoke it.
I’ve also taken Bruce’s Tai Chi Mastery Course which uses the Wu Style Short Form. I learned the Short Form, but have never experienced Wuji while practicing it.
(which may not be a fair trial, because I’ve also regularly practiced the Yang Style 24-Short Form since the get-go and have never experienced Wuji while doing it either.)

Maybe you have to do the Wu Style Long Form or walk the Bagau circle 10,000 times with Daoyin in each step before you feel Qi.

(I also do several Qigong sets, including Master Feng Zhiang’s Primordial Qigong–Hunyuan Qigong, without ever experiencing the flow of Qi out of Wuji.)

So Dr. Yang’s diagrams and descriptions are really just Theory to me.
So with Bagau and Wu Style Tai Chi.
(Chen Style is way beyond me.)

For what it’s worth.

Bob

[Anonymous]

For me, emptiness is before you’ve made any distinction. It is a clear space. The “Taiji state” is the moment you make a distinction. If you are going to create movement from stillness, it is the moment you decide where the pivot will be, the fixed stable place to launch your movement from. It is literally the pivotal moment. It is represented in some diagrams as two dots: one white and one black.

Once that is setup, the Tai Chi space is said to be created by them and the dance of yin and yang begins.

[Anonymous]

Exactly.
Beautiful.
Precisely put.
This is what I have been trying to describe.

It took me 10 years just to realize that there was something like “emptiness” associated with taiji.

Then it took another 10 years to feel and experience it.

It is so critical to the art.

Like you say,
“it is the moment you decide where the pivot will be”

I now think that it also the origin of Qi flow.

I’m glad that you tolerated my long comments as I went through the process of expressing this.
And I hope that any other bloggers notice the importance of this concept/experience.

Bob
P.S. I can’t make it to Bruce’s Mountain Palm Change workshop.
Have a good time.

[Anonymous]

I agree. This is the crux of all the internal arts. Without it, you aren’t doing Tai Chi, Hsing-I, or Bagua.

Also, from this point of view all of the internal arts are on par. The distinction between them that I have been working toward is really where they take it.

[Anonymous]

So, I think we agree about how all of the internal arts start. This fundamental process is common to all of the internal arts including Yi Chuan. Each seems to “favor” certain neigung elements to find this space. That’s one distinction I could make and we could argue to the end of time about which is superior, but that’s a fool’s errand.

Where I was going is the phases (jing, Chi, shen, wu, tao). I’m getting clearer and clearer how these work, and for me, Bagua is the only art that seems to be designed to take you to the end game.

I’ll abandon this thread and start talking about the phases and how they correspond to the tan tiens or perhaps I’ll take a simple neigung element like bend&stretch and talk about how it could be approached from each phase.

Robert, I’m disappointed we won’t meet at the Mountain Palm Change seminar. I was looking forward to exchanging ideas and really understanding how you found emptiness. The way I found it seems absurd. There has to be a better way.

I have a home in Alpine WY. If it isn’t sold by summer, I’ll be there the first two weeks of July. Perhaps we could try to meet. I think Alpine is about an eight hour drive from you.

[Anonymous]

Nature is a key element in finding emptiness,
especially the flowing water of a river–
like the Snake River.

My wife grew up in Idaho Falls.
We’d drive through Alpine on our way into the Wind River Wilderness.

You should have no problem selling your house to someone unable to afford living in Jackson Hole.
(North of Bejing they have new housing developments for the rich–one is called Jackson Hole with street names like Alpine and Moose Creek.)

Anyway I practice taiji along the Spokane River.
Each spring I drop into Hell’s Canyon and practice along the Snake River there.
In the summer I go north to British Columbia and practice on the shores of Kootenay Lake.
My favorite spot is in Kaslo where the mouth of Kaslo Creek flows into Kootenay Lake.
Common loons dive there for perch.
When the loon dives the fish scatter.
When the loon dives to the bottom of the lake the Qi expands.

This is not just a metaphor.
As Dogen (1240) wrote,
“the world of all ten directions is one luminous pearl.”
“All” means “total exertion.”
The loon dives only to catch a sunfish.
Drive Qi to the bottom of your etheric field, where it connects to the energy of the earth.
Release.
The grease is in the release.
Now the luminous pearl’s virtues are realized.
It is emptiness.
Allow it to flow.
Allow it to illuminate your whole being-space-time.

This is also the structure of Mountain energy:
Yin
Yin
Yang

Earth
Earth
Light
(Seeing the world of all ten directions.)

[Author]

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