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October 13, 2014 at 8:47 am #129135
Hello to everyone, glad to be with you)
I have a question, and i want to read your oppinion. Topic is chaos vs sponaneity. Waht is the relationship between spontaneity, mentioned in chapter 2 and chaos? Chaos in the meaning of smth where nothing can be determined.
Or spontaneity piercing evenly chaos and order, like yin and yang ?
Or it is nor chaos nor order ?
My question is not so pure intellectual, i had some experiences, when, in my opinion, some people move themselves in a qite destructive, “chaotic” states in search of spontaniety. So i wander how do you think it is related?
Thank you)October 16, 2014 at 8:38 am #134605
Hello- this seems to relate the spontaneity (naturalness, wu-wei, and related “essence” aspects- I’ve found an intriguing/challenging )…
I think the key is being-programmed (acting from/within automation-responses), can be recognized or not.. such that noticing that I have the tendency to do XYZ does not make it any-less determined that doing XYZ without my noticing it
-Western-pop-psych seems to emphasize “decision” making a statement and noticing as making a big distinction; so if I find I do ABC just state “that is what I do” or just decide you’ll do-else…. but I think “blindly” doing ___, noticing that you are doing ___, or feeling the drive to do ___ and then stop and do something else <which is just layering another program upon it… and likely that Fix-it response is also subcon-driven.. thus just as predictable.. ie determined in adv.. ie "not-spontaneous" (not- 'Real')
So in short- being Free is acting directly (seeming quite difficult to “interpret” as one could Freely do an action, or non-Freely do that same action, ie being spontaneous isn’t a certain type of act, but seemingly could be any action.. just that it is expressed….
(the hope might be that such a Free-spontaneous-nature action is Appropriate, as it is not only a ‘response’ to the action-that- is-ocurring.. but also hopefully a smaller chunk…
[In other words, not deciding to do something, and then engaging in that motor-action.. which takes some time to “do”.. during that chunk of time/action, one is not spontaneously-present, but has become Programmed.. even if in the normal flow one isn’t..]
-ex: the martial-arts step-punch, or any other “technique” and how the tendency of the mind is to start that “step-punch” and then be sort of committed to that “step-punch” action until it is completed (during which time something else could occur.. or not.. but during that action, one is gapped or tuned-put to a degree… vs the Guided-Missle ongoing tracking-response to each moment, without the locking into a certain ‘set’
In short- I’d tie “Chaos” (which is used in a few ‘judgemental” ways in current culture).. to the internal state of an “actor”…. the issue being say that is referring to ‘me’… is the question whether ‘I’ exper Chaos in my mind … OR is the question whether another person believes (interprets, etc.) whether I exper Chaos in my mind,,,, ?
Whether a person is A) responding fully-subcon automatically, or whether they are “witnessing” (commenting to themselves, of the automatic association responses… with the poss of “veto-reactions”.. yet whether or not to interfere/veto… being also driven by ‘other-subcon-auto-assoc-responses…), or C) experiencing a free-presence ‘action”, or D) in a state of “Chaos” (usually interpreted as negatively/undesired as either “unpredictable”? and/or random (ie unpredictable, because the person in question has no sense in their mind ie a mind-set that really is saying- not being programmed means one lacks any relevance of reason…) … or Chaos meaning a state of static-distraction (not quite “no-sense” rather say Jumping between multiple lines… as if the context and basis of interp keeps changing= reeval = not consistency…)
So in above (D) if eval another, could that really be evaluated (from the outside? .. especially as that sort of eval is really looking as whether a person is responding “as expected” .. thereby “not-spontaneous” by definition?
So if the above is NOT about ‘another” but about one’s self… then the internal-state of one’s self… (different issue).. but often we have a bias in current-culture to say that Eval myself, and Eval another (and thereby “I” eval another- from outside).. gets all blended together (and not blur those lines).
last- the use of the Term Chaos (especially as has been used in Science for the last few decades, and prior that in Philosophy as in Greek, Chaos, or KAOS- has a specific-precise meaning that dpes not mean random or non-sensical, but rather that there is a deeper sense of wholeness-holistic-holotropic… that can’t be directly observed.. ie its use in “Non-Linear Dynamics” ie “Chaos Physics” (as in the solution of the 3 body, or more, fdbk interaction-systems)…
in that sense- still I’d see Chaos state as being distinct from Spontaneous, but perhaps more an issue of cause-effect or a question of which is which (only determine from within)…
-but residing in the pt “From which intention-shifts arise” (Hsin: heartmind and the “Center” of the bagua.. ie not I perceive and then “react” nor I action, and then as that intention is expressed, the next domino step causes the ‘
(no matter how complicated it may seem to loop, that is still a seq-flow).. rather that underlying flux.. to reside-think-perceive-from that place (between and beneath where Yin and Yang are interacting and exchanging)
[I’d be quite interested to read your further thoughts on this, and how my response may, or may not, have addressed what you were really looking at- luck in your seeking.]October 16, 2014 at 8:56 am #134606
Another aspect- “freedom” could be seen as Freedom-from (constraints) (aware of, or not, -by degree- of the structure that supports one’s actions, less free, but more clear vs dispersed-diffusion).
Going beyond the 3 Degrees of Freedom:
first being I feel compelled to do X,
second being I decide to comply (perhaps further commit) or if to resist/block
third being- just do else than.. (not comply, nor resist.. but thinking I’ll just do some Random-other thing…. either directly, or more convoluted- thus less explicit, attempting to shift-context.. and yet still linked in chain-of-assoc
thus surprised: Flinch-reflex? (train to resist that, perhaps try and “transform it into something else”…. and then I won’t Do-Flinch, nor alter that ‘flinch’ into related, nor superimpose on to it.. instead I’ll see to “laugh and shake my hands loose” <seemingly not linked… and yet still the sequence-association…
rather: ‘Fourth’ requires actually going back to the start (ie can’t be in the action-domino… need to contact that “place” from which the “Flinch” arose.. watch and feel that change when/where this impulse arose up… and have a different “action” from that place? ie meditation-skill
not sure if the above added or as confused, but draws out (trying to describe-explicitly and yet concisely.. ugh) the issue which I see as often-blurred upon this subject…
I look fwd to reading-thoughts/work with this. -luckOctober 21, 2014 at 4:06 pm #134607
Hello, have a good day, a deep respect to you for your answer. Thank you.
First that i have to say is that you help me to formulate what kind of chaos did i mean. So it is specific-precise meaning that dpes not mean random or non-sensical, but rather that there is a deeper sense of wholeness-holistic-holotropic… that can’t be directly observed.(C))
What am i interested in. Let’s say form pure practical meaning. I practice some “arts” than i find myself in something which cannot be described, cannot be pure observed ( in some sense), but “It Is’)) And sure peoples which seems kind of strange ( joke:) clastering somehow, so they can understand each other.
So, i try to split human, as human natural, and kind of nonhuman, otherthanhuman, superhuman So i think there is a possibility, that this thing of chaos (and order too) kind of guide people. So they interact rather cohesive.
So the question is: is the spontaneity which is mentioned in chapter 2 of TTC belongs to some kind of thin matter ( i mean chaos, order, God, demon, etc) – personally i don’t think so. Or it is thing out of the box of descrimination by words( chaos order etc). So spontaneity and period. When you find it, or when It found you – it is obvious. But it is not chaos , nor order. Not everything which can be clearly determined by words. – personally i think that it is.
If spontaneity is kind of human nature ( which can be described as chaos, or order , or good or bad) so question is where its root ?)
Thank you very much for you wide answer, i read it all, and find many interesting and helpfull. Thank you, and have a good practice.
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