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Hello, and Happy New Yrear!
I have a question about the yin and yang surfaces of the body, and the qi flows along them as described in the beginner’s section of this program.
There are clearly yin and yang surfaces of the body. Without doubt. The inner and outer surfaces of the limbs certainly correspond to this principle: the armpit and the kwa, the inner surface of the arms and the inner surface of the thighs, the inner wrist and inner ankle. It is quite obvious.
The qi flows described in the qi gong movements of ‘Gods’ are confusing me greatly. The qi flow is this: up the inner surface of the leg, the spine, the outer surface of the arm/the top of the head. Down the front of the head/the inner surface of the arms, the front of the torso and down the outer surface of the legs.
My great confusion is that the yin and yang surfaces do not seem to correspond. Because going up you have yin yang yang (inner surace of legs, back of torso, back of arms), but going down you have yin yin yang (inner surfaces of arms, front of torso, outer surface of legs).
These yin and yang surfaces do not seem to correspond. At the very least you would expect the inner arms and inner legs to correspond, but they do not. Of course I expect there is some yin/yang duality that I do not understand, but can anyone recognise my difficulty?….
Luck in your practicing, I’m not sure if you are seeking it to make sense (in terms of yin-yang relating in a pattern), if so I can’t say as much about that.. but just felt compelled to quick reply one bit…
>>My great confusion is that the yin and yang surfaces do not seem to correspond. Because going up you have yin yang yang (inner surace of legs, back of torso, back of arms), but going down you have yin yin yang (inner surfaces of arms, front of torso, outer surface of legs).<<
your quote seems to make sense, and a bit that contributed to my understanding, is hearing in the past, that the Yin surfaces move energy in a Yin way (obvious, but not forceful more a relaxing, not whatever nothing, but like an electromagnet turned-on, vs a mechanical-pump type of action that the Yang-surfaces are a bit more like)..
so having that quality change as you circuit..(ie from feet, it is sort of coaxed up the leg, to DaiMai, then it ‘engages’ up the back and dynamically out arms (espec as moves out arms faster, per longer distance than over head).. then sort of welcomed-inward (the quality becomes softer, not weaker.) into and down to daimai- front.. then and then whooshes down to root
a bit dramatized..and in that way the quality of Yin vs Yang being a flavour of how that energy flow feels, and how it is “driven” .. not what the Energy does (the usual vector-dir of the flows can be reversed, the flow can jump, as it isn’t a singular substance, and whether “inward” or “outward” (or absorbing or emitting) doesn’t affect it being Yin or Yang.. thus outward extending-fwd projecting along “back” of forearms to fingers can be an absorbing flow.. or even ‘done-in a Yin “way” ‘ even though the flow is done (in G. Playing) Yang.. and thus usually outward projecting..
(the metaphor used I’ve heard is the controls on a sound mixing board.. an “equilizer” so to speak.. there are typical easiest to get-assocations.. that work, that link-up and introduce many controls, but deconstruct and they all can be used any which way.
-although like the sound-board, equalizer controls metaphor, not all controls independently combine in a consonnant way (to be euphonous to the ears)…I sense I’m not quite getting the difficulty, exactly, you are mentioning, but I hope my above comments might contrib something. luck
Hi, thanks Gary, that makes a lot of sense speaking from a qi perspective, but I’m not really there yet, as I am only a beginner (more likely a pre-beginner)
I think I was really referring to the connective tissues of the yin and yang surfaces; how they lengthen and stretch, but also how they laterally twist. I should have made that clear – sorry.
In that case, it feels as though the backs/sides of the legs etc. ‘belong’ with the back of the torso and the back of the arms. What do you think?
Hi Guy- great something was in my comment.. even if I was misunderstanding
I think when you said qi-flows I tapped on that qualitative transformation…-perhaps you might mean the transition of how one section shifts to the next? i.e. rather than rise up, espec with concrete-phy Connective Tissue focus.. I’d start scalp and fingertips and go in and down.. and just let the “up-part” alone.. so only ‘work’ the fingertips/palm.. inward.. then the transition into-thru the armpits.. down front.. (likewise a sort of relaxing drooping feeling scalp-down face.. through neck.. through through front-line soften…
-then the transition is at the daimai -ie waistband.. but I wouldn’t work that- thinkk Tissue-wise.. if you stretch down along outside of legs to the outer-edges of both feet… and down front of torso… the body will connect up the two flows.. as the tissues are linked underlying.. (rather than try and work it out.. ie like “lengthening” if you lengthen enough- you create more space.. they go together cause-effect.. that sort of approach might help with these Yin-Yang flows…?) closer to what you are seeking
Hi Guy. I am also learning the basic like you are and also like to figure out how qi flow in order to get a better feel in the exercise. My understanding on the qi flow is that 1)when the limbs are retracting or moving inward it is yin. Throwing out and forceful action are yang. 2)When the qi is flowing into the abdomen (or the five organs) and especially the dan tian it is yin .Flowing out or away is yang.
These actions are more significant than the simple up and down as refering to heaven and earth. So think of yin/yang in terms of dantian, I hope it make sense.
Ok then, I understand that reply and it makes a lot of sense, because you are talking about a centre to periphery movement of qi, which makes sense to me.
I am talking about the most basic teaching on the subject, though – in other words the stretching and lengthening of the yin and yang surfaces of the body. This is regardless of opening and closing.
The question still stands – the yang surfaces are the outsides of the legs, and by extension the back and sides of the legs. I will give you specific references if you want.
If opening and closing involves some combination of surfaces of the body, but stretching and lengthening involve a different combination, then fair enough. I just want to be clear. I was once a trainee instructor and I just keep imagining being ripped apart by questioning on such a glaring disparity.
Thanks Daniel, please let me know what you think…
Hi Guy , I am not very familiar with opening and closing or stretching and lengthening and so may not know exactly your perplexity. However I have some suggests and ideas that may be relevant.
Qi itself is not yin or yang, it is labelled as such according to it position or action or activities. Yin/yang is a term for communication purposes and help us in explaining things. If we know how the qi flow then it is good enough where the exercise is concern. The description and logic of the qi activities usually clear itself as we learn more and become more familiar with the action/movement and descriptions.
Yin-yang is the most basic concept in qigong and Taoism and we will come across it regularly . Sometimes its meaning is very clear like yang is top, sun, back ,big and heavy vis yin which is floor moon front small and light, sometimes qi is neutral and often it is in-between and hard to classify. It is well accept that the head and back is yang and the feet and front of the tight is yin. In the body, the lower dantien is centre to the physical body qi as the brain is centre to the nervous system. And so when we describe the qi movement as well as it nature, we usually refer it with respect to the dantien. What goes away from the dantien is yang and it travel along the back of the body whether up or down, what goes towards the dantien is yin and it travel along the front of the body. This is the natural flow but we also use our intend to flow it in reveres directions in special exercise position. So, qi flow is not in a fix direction in a certain pathway.
As I said, I am not familiar with opening and closing but my feeling is that although opening the energy gates and stretching the ligaments are not the same but they are closely related and should be both yang action.
I got chronic fatigue years ago and read up extensively for many years on Chinese medical practices and get to know quite well the qi concept and find it interesting to relate it to qigong exercise. Hope you find my thoughts relevant.
Sorry, I have to make a correction about light and heavy qualities. I wrongly mix up heaviness as yang.
Air , fire, expansion and lightness are closely associated and can each clearly be seen as yang whereas water, ice, contraction and heaviness is yin. Because forceful action and loud action are yang there is a tendency to lump heaviness with forcefulness which is wrong. Somehow there is a tendency to see solid organ as yang. Solid organs are kidney, liver, heart , stomach and lungs. They are yin organs with foundation, source and nourishing properties. Their corresponding yang organs are bladder, gall bladder, small intestines, spleen, and large intestines, They are yang with space, hollowness inside and are organ for discharging. The yin and yang organs work together as a pair for specific functions. I read that in taiji movement a key aspect is to watch out for the yin-yang interaction which are to be balance or to follow each other.
Yin yang is the most fundamental principle in this manifested world and so it is good to have a good awareness of its action and properties. These seem to be the case in qigong.
Hi Daniel !
I hope your health is good now.
Im going off topic here now, but I have some questions for you.
I have a condition that could be called cfs or at least something similar. My question is, have you “cured” yourself? And what did help you? I would love to hear your experiences.
I myself have practiced opening the energy gates qigong and a little D&T qigong for three weeks and Im feeling better and Im motivated to continue. I really believe this training cam help me. Ive earlier practiced a lot of neigong and meditation, but it emphasized the upward energy flow and something that could be similar to inner dissolving and that did not really help my physical health much. Sometimes I progressed, but It felt like walking an labyrinth. Very difficult work in therms of getting my physical health worked out.
I did not really know of the differences between the upward and downward flow until reading about from Bruce. I’m very intrigued now and motivated to proceed in his teachings.Would love to hear some more from you
Endre
Hi Endre,
We are diverting a bit but this is a topic that often popped up and I believe is of interest to quite a few of us.I hope the editor of the post will leave it here or shift it to an appropriate forum.
I am perfectly OK for about five years already. CFS is an ambiguous problem probably because it is often mixed up with other life stress situation that throws a person off the right conclusion. Most of the time we are at a lost to know exactly what is the cause and we somehow thought that some stress or something else is causing the problem. I think one way to be more certain that fatigue is the cause is to identify that the person is usually a driven hard working sort and he had been pushing himself very very hard on some project, work or some interest that started the physical deterioration. It is a physical thing and after a time mental disorientation also set in and he might start to think that he need to see a psychiatrist.
The cause and cure.—- The cause is an energy depletion on the deepest level and that level is the qi energy body, that is why the problem is difficult to understand by the person suffering . Qi being the ‘foundation of the physical body’ it can upset the physical body in many strange way. In my case,for the mood problem I check with psychiatrist but it was useless and as for all other symptoms I don’t even know how to explain to a doctor and so I resort to Chinese and western herbal medicine and other typical alternative cure. You can say that for about ten years I do nothing but just studying and experimenting with alternative medicine because that is what is available to me other than being a registered doctor.
The cure for qi depletion could be qigong which is obvious or direct. To nourish and heal the body takes times . If we have access to a qigong healer who can pass his qi into our body we can have rapid recovery. If we are to learn how to work our qi in order to cure ourself it is going to be more difficult. Having say that I must say qigong is the best form of exercise around for anybody and especially for people who have experienced CPS. The way to replenish our qi is 1) built up the lower dantien ( as yet we don,t know how to do this directly) 2) exercise the kidney (when you do qigong exercise concentrate more on those forms that work the leg and qua only.) 3)Follow the water tradition qigong as in energy arts. The ‘ water’ part is their way of saying a nourishing, safe foundation-building style and this is done by concentrating on building the lower dantien and kidney first. I have also come across this method solely in Bruce’s energy arts. The lower dantien and or kidney is the source of body qi. This is the most basic level of qi as compare to other aspect such as emotional or spiritual qi.
I must say I started reading up and learn qigong about one year ago with energy arts. I think energy arts has a very good system in their foundation qigong, that is in standing dissolving, energy gates, dragon and tiger, heaven and earth , circling hand and god-cloud .This is enough for most of us who wants to keep physically fit maybe spend half- an-hour a day enjoy and exploring our energy and body. Spend more time for the first year or so to built up a start, like to get some qi headway or simply to make a proper correct start. First two set is more than enough but adding the others definitely make qigong more interesting and will bring qigong to much higher level.
Martial art, neigong (in deep and proper Taoist deeper practice) and meditation is only for those who wants to explore Taoism fully. Not necessary for us who just want to keep fit.
I feel that energygate is an all round set that open up and builts up energy strongly. Dragon and tiger built up qi at lower intensity and its focus is more as a qi maintenance set, by itself it is an all rounder.
Maybe you have learn qigong more than me and must be wondering how did I get to know things so quickly. I think I can understand and absorb faster because I have been practising meditation for 20/30 years already. I learn to focus or concentrate at the forehead or upper dantien as in Taoism. Each sitting I do it for a few hours. My meditation is from Hindu tradition. For some physical exercise my master do simple yoga (not related to the meditation) whereas I do energy arts qigong to keep fit. So, to focus, to understand body, mind , qi is not new to me. I am familiar with the tools, so to speak.
As for the cure, medicine or help, I will describe what works for me and you can have a reference to see what works for you. Firstly, if we have physical ailment the obvious recourse is a doctor or some known medicines.In my case these are the few products that I have taken at various time and mostly together also. I muddle along with this products until I am completely cure. I still take them now and then, as they are simply tonics.
1) Shen Qi Wan-a chinese herbal tonic to boost the kidney yang energy.This one gives a quick boost and is quite dramatic in effect but is not the complete cure because our kidney yin/yang are depleted whereas this herbal is mainly yang , the effect is faster and obvious. This is cheap, a most common tonic (in Taoism tonics are often strong medicine also) and should be easily accessible in Chinatown.
2)Western alternative supplements.- I give you what I have taken and you can explore them. I read dozens of author and I will give one reference, Dr. Julian Whitaker and he wrote Natural Healing with one chapter on CPS.I dare say if you are a CPS case this recommendation will work for you. His recommendation are ;-
1-multi-vitamin 2 magnesium 3 flax seed/ fish oil 4 some adrenal tonic (this is directly for kidney) 5 Siberian ginseng.
3)Go to the internet and check up vitamins and herbs for dopamine for this is also kidney tonic. Check up GABA supplements to see if you show any need.
It took me more than ten years to know and to zero in on this supplements. Once we hit the right cure it takes weeks to have good effect and months or a year to have more or less cure.
I hope this lengthy forum is acceptable as I need to explain enough to make sense of this chronic condition.
Keep working, be gentle on yourself and when the time comes everything will be al-right.Daniel
a bit dramatized..This is an archived forum (read only). Go to our active forum where you can post and discuss in real time.