Internal Martial Arts effectiveness with limited training

[Anonymous]

I have a question I’d like to your opinion on:
with external styles, you can learn how to punch, kick and block a bit effectively in a few weeks and from there,
practice improves. With Internal Martial Art styles, usually to be pretty effective takes years of practice.
How were Tai Chi or Hsing Yi practical as martial arts (army, bodyguards, self defence) in violent times?
Also, a lot of top IMA fighters started with External Styles which have quite contrary form (especially muscular tension) to IMA. For fighters who made that big transition, was it a few techniques at a times – mostly Karate but some Tai Chi until mostly Tai Chi with some Karate…?

[Anonymous]

hi dara
my experience of this transition started with my being a karate sensei, running a dojo in seattle. I started learning taiji, them bagua and chi gung, then all the bruce stuff, while being a full time karate teacher. eventually I closed the school and brought my focus to the internal styles. I still spar and train with a variety of martial artists, but I mostly use bagua, some taiji, some systema, and now some hsing-I, as my fighting training and “style”. everyone ends up with their own style, if you keep at it enough…

first off, yes, you can sort of learn a block or kick in a month or so, but unless you are already a natural athlete, your not going to be able to use it very well until you have really practiced the hell out of it.
best research ive found shows that it takes over 6000 repetitions of a movement, after you have learned it, is the minimum # you need to make a movement “fully online”, where you can use it without excess concentration or stopping to think first. if you train daily, 100 a day, it’ll take 2-3 months. so if you got 4 blocks, 3 or 4 strikes, 4 or 5 stepping patterns, and several kicks, maybe a throw or 2, and a couple joint locks, that’s more than a couple weeks to get “good”.

my experiences also showed most folks really need 3-5 years of training to integrate the movement skills.
this is similar to athletics, where most top athletes took at least 3 and more like 5-6 years to fully develop their skills.

ive seen comparable results with bagua, if you focus on the single palm change, you can get to where you can use it against other martial artists in a couple of months of diligent practice, and by keeping the number of changes you focus on to a minimum (single and double is bruce’s recommendation), and you work on free applications with other styles of MA,, you can develop awesome fighting skills and a whole lotta vitality and vibrancy, in that same 3-6 year period.

the flip side of it is, after 10 years of karate training, my body hurt, my knees were giving out, and I was becoming overly forceful and kind of angry in my personal life. many of the adult students under me also had injuries and chronic tension impeding their progess, and enjoyment of life.

after 10 years of bagua/chigung/taiji/meditation/etc. I am much more mobile than I was 10 yrs ago, I feel better, I am very energized, I can put the screws to most any martial artist (except old masters and long time students of internal styles, and some top professionals in various styles) I can kick higher than I ever could as a karateka, I can squat easier and lower, recover from injuries and exhaustion much better, and (most important) it’s obvious that I am only scratching the surface of what I can develop with decades upon decades of practice. i literally salivate when I think of how much better I might be when im 70 or 80.

Looking forward to being old? now that’s a paradigm shift.

so in conclusion, id say if your young and competitive, some karate training might be good.

but the way bagua works is much more natural, fluid, and responsive, so it seems to me that if your in it for the long haul, you might consider the long term benefits of each art and choose accordingly.
tai chi is also a good choice, particularly if your looking for healing along with improved skills.

I hope this helps, and best of training, eh?

rock on
richard

[Anonymous]

thanks for the answer Richard –
I still have lots of admiration for the art and dedication of the external styles but agree it’s great to practise something that gets better with age!

[Anonymous]

Hey Richard,
I am not sure if this is the same Richard that had the Karate program and did some Systema with Scott, Kaizen and myself? If so, it has been too long. Hope that things are going well.

Regards
Brian King
systemanw@yahoo.com

[Anonymous]

Oi Brian.. just a hello, I only met up with you at Scott M’s syst. Seminar.. and Richard’s open-house-dojo event.. you still Systema-ing? (you ever do any Earts NeiGung? -since you were reading/posting here.. could have just been reading forum, but I’ve seen many who saw either Systema or an Int’l (like BaguaZhang) (one of the two first- when seeing the second- hand in glove).. anyway, just I recog a name, and I guess R.S. may when he sees your comment. -cheers and luck to ya

[Anonymous]

Just thought I’d try and post this again- some of my posts (like this one I tried to post 4 times prior- had it saved)- thought I’d copy-paste it once more… (any one else exper that?)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I’d add the twist that having one-on-one (or direct-hands-on tweaking constant-refinements) training, vs “class” setting… makes a difference, and add to that the idea of “health-longterm effectiveness” not being a focus.. if you were going to train-shocktroops… one could have noticable changes in a short period of time- but the things that seem to take yrs to learn is what the actual internal-mechanics are.. (the aha).
If constantly “no, that’s not it, like that… keep it up, opps off a bit, there.. ” not, try- clearly on track

Not give slack, or short-cuts… such that it is even-smooth-connected (Water_trad, long-term develop)… if you use the type of Rev-off (like Bruce references in the “warnings” chs in Opening the Egates, as well as salted in “The power of Int’l martial arts”).. . plus there is a weeding-out process.. just like in Military, and ProBodyguarding (or MMA- the idea that system is good for all, ignores the idea of those most talented stick with it.. those that like and want it, but are optimized…) … so if one (as I was) is boundup and misaligned deep in spine, or has jts issues.. vs those that try a few Opening-methods and sense the greater alignment… not only will the results be clear (and those that have a rehad/rebalancing going on… wouldn’t be in the Accelerated program)

I’d also be really wary of associating past-ages External Martial arts (say a KungFu SilLum like HungGar or Baji) -where they may have built up to practicing 3-4hrs a day5 days a week.. and not like in Gyms where that is including WaterCooler time or “treadmill”… and (as I tried to phrase above, not too clear).. even the Ext’l Martial Arts- in “mall” locations… espec US and other “modern style” follow the teacher systems- is a whole different.

I’d say nearly all TaiChi done “slowly and softly” is still “hard-style” as it is just moving arms and legs, just like an untrained reaches for a glass of water… not like the transformed bodily connections developed over time.. whether Int’l or Ext’l (in the past) vs a “3rd” modern interpretations of “reconstructred” martial arts…

more and more articles-youtube vids, etc. call Int’l small subtle weight drops, shakes, and jerks- and fall that FaJin (sigh) which I learned as the definition of ext’l….
but the key I was taught was that both GungFu(s) (int or extl) require training to change your physical system… if you just randomly have a person try the move-
its not just a coordination -speed thing.. it requires actual changes (crude ex: ballistic plyometrics, gently built up over a longtime… break into 10-15 mins sections- then rest 1/2 between.. 6-8 times a day, day after day.. kept within tolerance (70%),, after 3months, that persons soft-tissue, espec jt-capsules completely changed…and another couldn’t just tough it out and do the same.. and that is “crude obvious”…

So if you have people that 6-8hrs a day, they are on task- focused (not need do it as their job- but if it was.. but even if one worked full time– then spend all evening. wake at dawn and time at least half-hour or hour to start day… one would practice different than “we would/do”.. as the idea is very systematic, and results focus.. not just general focusing.. (Beng chuan down- such that Twisting-turning/lengthening, links very clearly into intestines, and feet-soles rooted.. so day1 one knows exactly what they are doing and why- not a general sense or “is this a slow punch?” and then yrs later I realize… that was the point ..

but have teacher giving fdbk to where the students is developging.. exactly.. and push (not slack off focus, if they wobble or get distracted- the training incorps exers to devel that qual- etc.).. Contrast that to students/teachers that have done TaiChi (or even HsingI/Bagua) for decades and they still don’t have a clear int’l component driving the movement.. let alone mixing “regular movement” with int’l fluid hydraulics and lig/tendon elastics (which even that is ext’l…)

and the big deal- is range recognition and Tactical (and strategic elements: those are oft mixed or confused).. in “Mall dojos” that is developed by Sparring (or grappling “rolling” drill or freeplay).. but how to do that, using the int’l arts strengths.. and the mind-set/nerveconditions.. to take advantage and develop (again systematically- gradual in first few days, but after a month- that’s 20 or even 30 steps up a ladder… not One-2-3hr class a week= 4 sessions in a month, vague training focus, and time inbetween, losing the density of trainingaffect (the accustomizing its Use, big element of Martial Art , of any kind… but espec Int’l- changing the context so much…)
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so shortened, I’d say looking at modern dojo, modern YouTube, to prior ages… is different… seeing lectures by teachers that mean-well, but are figuring it out as they go, vs a system/lineage that clearly has inherited/knows.. this XYZ results in. ___

(as well as the Weeding out Process
– those in a Modern Elite military training are selected- first… and then still washout those later… vs the GIs.. in the same way EagleClaw was taught to the troops.. those that caught on were amped up (those that when Int’l components stirred up heavy releases.. and they need to slow down .. weren’t in this accel program. That helps us modern- health wise to digging out these PreExisting Conditions.. so modern-dojos of Int’l seeks to find these.. vs weed those with such out, to find those to push and develop the biggest bang.. and then pressure-test them).

The idea that 80-100yrs ago the intensity of a class is similar to something one would see (I wasn’t around, so I don’t know.. but if even basket-weaving or playing poker whatever can get a group to come together in the afternoon after work- for a few hours 5days a week, and a few more hrs Sat (possibly Sun also)… and keep that up for month after month.. to have Any group for 6months, not missing days… and be there.. for the training consistency, as well as have the teacher-hands on being very clear “You there, do this in this way… not that- only worry bout ‘this’.. until ready for next” – no overall description, no what about, comparison-
concept.. just start- to finish plan.. followed and plan (and the groups of 7, 1 in the middle 6 at once.. build up slow).. then have 1 person, and 1 or 2 “principals to guard” with 10 people milling around (in a crowd) lets say 6 will attack, and 4 (or those 10) are just bystanders (the bodyguard-actor, and 2 ‘principals’ -being guarded, don’t know how will attack- select out of room, etc.)..

* requires 13-14 in group (1,2,3 instructor- coaches to watch and given fdbk.. done daily allows task- role rotation, and not a once in a yr event, and not chaos, but systematic.. develop skill via ErrorFree exposure, and clarity..
[have a group that will consistently assemble and develop?]

how step using int’l power to drive (and which generates the wave inside and “around you in -aura-“)… how to step like that so it is more intensely felt, then how to step like that while another is stepping “near you” = distraction-only… then while you react and try to step around = reaction to (yet still doing this “new type of stepping, and having the Int’l connections).. and then…. do against slight threat (which triggers stress and may crumble skill-developed)… do with more people moving around and more complex details to react to (but systematically- usually only seen in “seminar” as an overload. at the end- wow.. but no skill is stable…
done daily.. with clarity of what each person’s skill is, and progression (what of these building-blocks is developed first and then second? random? or a plan (lineage/system) how is the foundation developed- where at the end of 20yrs of practice, the results are good.. (would that knowledge change how you’d do 4-6months of intense training? -this is what can’t be reinvented in a few yrs, or a lifetime, but is inherited from a group that refined and reworked testing, over generations.. if they actually did)… this I think is the missing element you reference- how did they develop people back then for combat… and don’t confuse modern partial-pieces and “reconstructions” to implementation of those systems.. into modern usage.. (the time, the expetise, and customization- steadily amp’d up… rapidly wires in understanding that don’t need to be “taught”… as modern classes we learn mostly by being taught… as we only get a bit and then go home and ponder… if you are developing a Doer of the art, they dont’ need to know what to do, let alone why they are doing it, just what drill do I do today.. – while the instructor-coaches give constant fdbk and relevant customization.

(an issue I’ve thought-worked on- its not unrelated to modern-times.. nor is the elite lvl training Ext’l (whether martial, or athletic etc) similar…. does one think that Olympic qualifiers train in a way like those at that local Gym do? -the Gold-medal hopefuls are tested before membership- then prepared.. before the Olympic board “qualification-tests” … and then optimized precisely for the event… and even the Olympics aren’t as specific (let alone having the history of the systems) as the Internal-system-lineages… that were.. ..
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[Anonymous]

Just wondering what those involved in this system presently think about this, above, issue.

(as some have commented on either Martial-practice interest, or not.. etc.. )

as relates to purpose, what actual skill one is developing (mastery, cost/benefit risk/reward: issues)

[Author]

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