Lower spine sacrum follow up question to paralece

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  • #128200

    Anonymous
    Guest

    I have had some difficulty recently with these instructions concerning the position of the lower spine and sacrum(and by extension the whole spine). I was explaining the concept to a group of medically minded people, who objected quite strongly. I cannot remember their exact words, but the general objection was this:

    “These instructions simply beg the question WHY!! The natural structure of the human spine is to be curved, and yet you direct us to straighten these curves. Why?! Did nature make a mistake? Can nature make a mistake of this order? If the ideal posture of the spine is straight whilst sitting, standing and walking, or even bowed as in ba gua, then why on earth would a curved spine ever have evolved? Is there not danger in moulding the spine into a shape that is contary in every way to it’s natural order? What evidence do you have that we should act so contrary to nature, from which we all emerge and on which we are dependent for our very existence?!!”

    I would rather avoid a repeat of such an awkward silence. Could really do with some help on this one, looking forward to hearing your thoughts…  

     

    #130517

    Anonymous
    Guest

    I wouldn’t consider evolution as a factor affecting the curvature of spine. From what I’ve read, pre-historic average age for humans was somewhat 23-25 years. From what we know now as a fact is that the curvature of spine doesn’t have any negative impact up age of 40-50. That is prehistoric people just didn’t have enough of their lifetime to experience the negative consequences of the curvature.

    #130518

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Igor, thank you my only respondent. I am afraid that I didi not quite follow your reply.

    Firstly, surely evolution has everything to do with the curvature of the spine?! Every variation in every organism is an adaption to the environment. The curvature of the spine found in human beings is an adaption to an upright posture. This is a widely accepted fact.

    So, a curved spine is an adaption to upright posture and walking upright. Ba gua teaches a bowed spine when walking and standing; exactly the opposite. This is a true disparity.

    Secondly, lower back pain is endemic in the western world affecting young peple equally. If not as a direct consequence of spinal curvature, it would be reasonable to assert that the spine has become extraordinarily vulnerable to injury. Either way, we return to the original problem: if a curved spine produces negative effects then why did a curved spine evolve? If the ideal way to stand and walk appears to be contradictory to nature, then what is the use of a curved spine?

    To an audience of westerners, then, how does one justify advocating a posture or method of movement that is opposite to nature in the absence of any evidence? Would they not be justified in fearing or dismissing such seemingly ‘unnatural’ practices? Is it reasonable to tell them not to ask such questions? Most have virtually no awareness of ancient Chinese traditions, or their reputations, and would certainly require a more substantial explanation….

    #130519

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Guy,
    I think the issue is one of functionality. Perhaps the curvature is necessary in upright walking (i am no authority), however, what we’re are doing in these programs are specific to our goals. For instance, according to our anatomy the natural way to throw a baseball would be underhanded, but we know by watching professionals that this isn’t the BEST way to do it properly and efficiently in the sport of baseball. So for the purposes of bagua and the internal arts, maybe the most efficient way to keep the spine for its purposes is straight (which it most certainly seems to be). A curved lower spine may be natural for standard walking around day to day, but to do the movements and practices of this art, perhaps the most natural position is the straight spine. I know that to me the spine seems to straighten naturally when initiating these movements, so it does seem natural that this would be the way to go (although obviously per the original post my spine doesn’t completely straighten to where it should, i just mean that it tends to or wants to straighten).

    #130520

    Anonymous
    Guest

    The curvature of the spine is a topic that has fascinated me for years. Ever since I was in my thirties, my spinal curvature started to become more pronounced. Probably a result of working at a desk rather than a natural outcome of evolution. By the time I reached fifty, I could lie on my back on the floor but the back of my head would not touch the floor and neither did the small of my back. This motivated me to take up Tai Chi since I was told this art works a lot on the spine.

    Now that I am on the verge of being officially “old” (65), I am happy to report that there has been a lot of straightening and loosening of the spine and all that is attached to it. Throughout the entire process, I wondered just what would be considered naturally straight in a well functioning male body.

    Western concepts say that the spine is naturally curved like an “S”. This is supposed to give a cushioning effect somewhat like a spring. This never made complete sense to me as I gradually learned to soften my walking by developing stronger legs and a much more open pelvis. I failed to see why even a very straight spine would cause problems when using the more “Eastern” styles of walking, both during Tai Chi and during regular walking. In fact, the less curvature I developed, the better every activity felt.

    Given the structure of the spine with all of its vertebrae separated by discs and its considerable degrees of articulation when we are young, I must conclude that it is our lifestyle that brings about rigidity and excess curvature of the spinal column. This is further worsened by such fashion trends as high heeled shoes for women and the Western image of the male and female ideal bodies which emphasize a tight waist, etc.

    So, let’s not blame nature for our curved spines when we are doing it to ourselves; nevertheless, I would appreciate any references to articles or books on this topic. I still wonder how much spinal curvature is really natural or desirable and how this may vary from person to person given age, gender and culture.

    Meanwhile, Guy, if you would restrict your audience to only fundamentalist Christians, I doubt you will be bothered by any further questions involving evolution.

    Joe

    #130521

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Joe,

    Fundamentalist christians at a bagua or tai chi class? I suspect they would rather stick pins in their eyes or rend their garments!! Ha ha funny comment.

    But seriously, I am glad that you find the topic interesting. So this is a relevant subject for discussion? Being new to a forum, I’m never quite sure.

    I quite agree with you that EXCESS curvature of the spine, which brings susceptibilty to injury, is caused by lifestyle, repetitive strains, high heeled shoes etc.. No argument there. However, if you take any human being, except babies and those educated in the internal arts, their spines will be curved. The ‘natural’ state of a human spine is curved. Absolutely it is. Furthermore, a lower spine that is bowed is actually viewed as a pathological state. Analysed from a mechanical perspective, it has been shown that firstly, a curved column is more resistive to downward force than a straight one. Secondly, this resistive capacity is proportional to the number of curves in that column. The references for this can be found in any textbook on medicine, anatomy, osteopathy etc..

    Ba gua and tai chi practitioners teach just the opposite. They teach that the most resistive capacity of the spine is developed with a single curve. This is a peculiar situation.

    Much as you would advise me to teach to a non-existent audience, I feel that I am being a realist. If you teach a group to practice what is opposite to their whole knowledge and thinking (Opening the Energy Gates states that the ideal standing posture is exactly opposite to the western military style posture), then anecdotal evidence is just not sufficient. It is a substantial challenge to the orthodox view in the west.

    Finally, I know of no articles or books concerning this question. Due to the very limited awareness of internal arts in the west, it probably has just not yet been questioned. If the practice becomes more widespread, and even a prescripted form of medicine in the west, which I hope, then these sorts of questions will definitely arise.

    #130522

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Paralece, you say “perhaps the curvature is necessary in upright walking”. You then say ” but to do the movements and practices of this art( upright walking!), perhaps the most natural position is the straight spine”. I agree that this is exactly the peculiar situation we find ourselves in.

    #130523

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Guy,

    I am well aware that “Western” views (for lack of a better term) of things anatomical, physical and spiritual are often in significant conflict with those concepts that underlie the internal arts. From years spent instructing Tai Chi to fellow North Americans, I conclude that it is futile to explain Eastern beliefs and theories to those who are not open to them. Also, I feel it is a poor strategy to hide or dilute these basic concepts in order to gain acceptance from an otherwise skeptical or hostile audience. Let each group follow its own path and accept the consequences.

    That said, I cherish the right and the obligation to challenge any belief system with the ultimate intent of acquiring useful knowledge. The concept of the curved spine is one such issue.

    You mention that the human spine is naturally curved with the exception of a baby. I was taught that the ideal body in Taoist thought is that of a baby, although not explicitly for any shape of the spine. I am well aware of the concept of curved shapes being able to withstand pressure better than straight ones. This is certainly a fundamental tenet of all the anatomical books I have studied. My problem is that the spine is not made of one solid piece of material but is actually an assembly of different materials, each with a particular dimension and degree of softness and inherent stability. What studies have been done to determine the effect of a shockwave transmitted down (or up) the spine on the individual components of a curved vs. straight spine? What is the load on just one vertebra if that unit is located at the extreme of a spinal curve vs. the load on the same vertebra located in a less curved spine?

    Perhaps Bruce or some of the other instructors and forum members have a perspective on this topic. For me, it remains an interesting area for further investigation.

    Joe

    #130524

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Guy,
    What i mean is, regular upright walking (say, down the street) and the upright walking we do in bagua (around the circle) are not the same. If there were no difference we would already be professionals and wouldn’t have to practice or be taught anything new. But mostly i agree with Joe, we need to hear more about this from an instructor or Bruce himself. Sorry for the misunderstanding, i should have been more clear.
    Patrick

    #130525

    Anonymous
    Guest

    I just want to add to the very good posts above one more point.
    When I started to learn meditation some time ago I read the proper posture (sitting or otherwise) would be straightening the spine. I tried very hard to straighten my spine with little success. Now that I’ve done some meditation I don’t even bother. My spine gets straightened out itself because the powerful forces that drive meditations take over and I just follow them.

    #130526

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Joe, that was a brilliant reply, thank you, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

    Now I can stop labouring the point, I think, but before I sign off, I want to make some clarifications. Firstly, I am not about to attempt to dilute the view point of Taoism in any way. Quite the reverse. For me, it is the resolution of the apparent contradiction that drives me to search for some kind of reconciliation.

    Of course, that would imply that Western medicine in general has a very far from complete view of human health and disease in general. ABSOLUTELY!! I absolutely believe that, although I also believe in its power. Isn’t that what the I Ching is all about? Opposites, or apparent opposites, and their interactions? Do we reach the middle of the trigrams in this case when these apparent viewpoints are fully resolved?

    Take one more example in the western world : heart disease, it’s biggest killer. Opening and closing to increase the elasticity of the blood vessels? Brilliant! Just the answer. And let’s not start on cancer….Have to tread a bit carefully talking about cancer though….

    Anyway, Joe, Igor and Paralece, it has been a pleasure. I salute you!

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