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    Bob, I know you started this on another forum, but look for a youtube video by Arthur Cunningham explaining the difference between internal & external. He’s attempting to explain how he uses the compress and rebound cycle for internal power. Hsing-I and Bagua can use this same paradigm. Hsing-I is arguably designed to bring the three waves up in rapid succession. Bagua can do even more complex flows.


    Great link Jim,

    youtube WuChiTao the difference between Internal & External
    posted: Oct 23, 2015
    with Arthur Cunningham

    Although he uses different terms, Cunningham, like Bruce and Mizner and Sinclair and Meredith are demonstrating the same internal rebound phenomena.

    (tongue in cheek):
    It’s National Doughnut Day
    (first Friday of June–The Salvation Army dubbed National Doughnut Day after the gals made doughnuts for troops in France during WWI)

    (still tongue in cheek):
    In 1847 a 16 yr-old seaman punched holes in his doughnuts–he couldn’t stomach the under-baked goey center of the Dutch oily cakes.

    Perhaps the doughnut-hole is “The Tai Chi Space”
    It’s empty.
    It’s powerful.
    And you keep going back for more.

    So: Daoyin and doughnut-holes!

    Daoyin–another way to explain the rebound internal energy.
    by working the blood, the tangible Yin, there is more room for your yang.
    “guiding” the yang, white energy is guided
    single, double or triple–or even “more complex flows.”

    Cunningham (dressed in symbolic white shirt and black trousers) calls it the “White wave.”

    Scott Meredith calls it the “Soft wave.”

    I sure wish I could do it, too.


    Daoyin and Cunningham and Meredith seem to be describing the same internal energy.


    The trivia-details about the donut/doughnut is cool (as the question goes, shouldn’t they be a dough washer? :)

    But in regards to the association here- whatever use this rebound

    (as I was taught this attempted duality is incomplete, it isn’t just either: external, or using phy-elastics..

    there are three: athletic movement, Arthur Cunningham as an example of Ext”l Gungfu.. (shaolin, white eyebrow, five ancestors, white crane- does this.. and many physicalized HsingI or TaiChi or WingChung), vs Int’l gungfu … (which requires changes in the body to allow inner power, in the same way that changes in the body are required ‘prior-to’ the ext’l gung-fu.. thus this rebounding could be sort-of done off the street, but the progressive relaxation and liquidification allows it to happen… )

    That’s my understtanding, and yet there is a desire to simplify and combine. (this YT video is interesting and might be easier to follow if “mark” the receiver being bounced, didn’t add his own hop, vs riding the push (as most would complain of other such videos). -I’d say that is good ext’l gungfu but not internal (in terms of using chi, let alone fa jin.. that is fa li).

    The statement you’ve made about mizner and meredith relating to this I’d say is mistaken (my understanding), that is not the sung-flow (there isn’t an internal drop, though there could be.. seems clear in Adam’s demos).. and in terms of Meredith- in each of his books, and videos (espec his YT), he seems to think it has nothing to do with it (how many times have you read/heard him say- “its not physical”? perhaps missed that— but I think that would only be interpreted if one was reading-for the rebounding… his dropping the vib-state from the lower-abs (tanten) that rebounds from the root, involves no movement of the body, nor shifting of the weight,and it is continuous..

    …not down- bounces up.. then needs to neutralize that rising to drop again… it can be a continuous stream… a feeling state that fills and vibrates the path. (and the Hard wave is more disinct… if you needed to associate it, one might try and tie rebounding to the hard wave, even though he says “it’s not physical”.. but the soft wave is further from. (both are very distinct states, not vague, but need to be developed)..

    So your sentence: Scott Meredith calls it the “Soft wave.” –I don’t understand how you could have gotten that from his book(s).. but my knowledge of his teachings I’d say, if compared to the WuChiTao YT video- is something completely different.. (both could be neat, just not the same).


    Great comments Taokua, Thanks

    You and Jim have so much to say.

    But I need to add one more thing,
    before I jump to class and pontificate about Tai Chi being an internal art.

    As Taokua points out I mix these things up/together.

    I’m big on Daoyin.
    Andrew Nugent-Head is my main source on it.

    But he harks back to the 90s in a Youtube video of his Master,
    Xie Peiqi (now deceased)

    YouTube Qigong master projecting his chi energy

    Bill Moyer is the Western journalist observing Xie’s demo.
    Andrew Nugent-Head is in the chain riding one of Xie’s “pushes”–
    many commenters to the video scream, fraud–hoax–staged

    Perhaps, Taokua, you can give me your take on this video.

    ext’l gungfu?


    int’l gungfu?


    Hello there- I just happened to peek-in, best wishes in your practice and your consideration on these matters..
    I am familiar with what you mention, but I think you might have mistyped? (not sure)..

    Xie Peiqi is Yin style bagua teacher, one that ATS documented extensively (martial and healing- nearly all avail on their YT).. while the Mystery of Chi documentary person you seem to refer to, I believe is Shi Ming (different person).
    [you list link in your post, but I don’t see a URL, so not sure the video, but I’m sure I know one you mean]- I bought that docu (assuming you mean the same one) on VHS way back.. and viewed/pondered it.. (&now can watch mp4 clip) and now I see much more in it than I did..
    (There are things going on, but context in what is being done, its purpose- in whatever video- and what one is being shown.. is it a demonstration, or a developmental training exer, or a testing-specific attribute blding drill? … and are those that have fame, or at least a famous video, the best examples, ie hype and “showmanship” is such a modern-culture thing (marketing and song&dance being part of it and not just ‘selling’ ie in many cases the sizzle is as, if not more, important than the ‘steak’.. as the old mkrting expression goes..)

    anyway- beyond what and how he is doing, which builds on building-blocks that don’t seem very interesting or exciting, which are combined together and then built up.. then much look impressive, but just look at the final is like seeing a building one day on a vacant lot, and not the construction process.. show the consttruction, digging and pouring the foundation-blocks… and no one shows interest.)
    —whether that particular video shows what it seems to, is hard to tell; while a method that has many relations to what is shown, and what is being done- that I have sent my time focused on

    [But that question needs methods in common and is the subject of a training system, not something I would explain in sound-bytes– but brings to mind watching Cirque duSoliel, or another balancing/circus type act… seen a tight-rope (or even a slack-rope) walker.. that mock-stumbles and stagger, or rock-steady strides along- then stops and back-flips landing upon one-foot and continues walking… Anyone reading this not seen such a stunt (even if on video.. but espec if in person) and not thought- how is that possible? and yet, the thought simul: “I couldn’t do that, nor any I know”.. and yet NOT thinking fake…(?) true? (etc and other ex, espec Prestidigation/stage-magic, say Kriss Angel or David Blaine, or the few others are that not only world-renowned, but masterful.. not only “how?” but the skill (I was taught some tricks by a sleight-of-hand performer in my youth, not to world-class lvl but good to me.. and even a trick I knew.. and was practicing to do myself at that time.. still seeing him do, it was magic.. (sometimes, knowing how can make it ‘more’ amazing)…

    anyway- the example of video (YouTube, or online, or TV/movies gives an international culture today, we see 5-10 people and have a sense they are more.. and they may be the ‘best in the world’ searched to find, and yet our subcon makes us think anyone should be able to so perform.. (and thus the teachers/performers are expected to, and so they either “put on a show”.. or don’t.. as most cases they are the highly-talented… being well-trained isn’t the same as such..
    even one trained from youth in music, or math, who
    much of the call by viewers is the formula (explain how in a few sentences or there is nothing to explain, cuz no one knows, and it doesn’t exist.. and there are no secrets, so why doesn’t everyone know xyz.. In many subjects.. apply to the stage magicians, or what a concert violinists does with their instrument, then a person that watched them gives a try… I can’t do it, so fake..

    anyway- in reference to the above person- I’d review materials by Xie Peiqi, to compare/contrast to the other referenced.. he authored:

    Mind Over Matter: Higher Martial ArtsApr 19, 1994
    by Shi Ming and Siao Weijia

    which is interesting, and I find info in, but hard to tell if I’m putting thoughts into or not (In case you’re interested, and hadn’t already seen- it doesn’t have direct physical action-exers.. but does have things to work-on, but you need to decipher, if you want, step this way and think or shift-weight, etc.. this bk doesn’t give that.. I’d be curious what any who have read it might think).

    (re Shi Ming: Andrew mentions running into personal-issues that arose after the fame began to acrue to that teacher (largely from that video).. so ‘bad taste in the mouth’ as the saying… [which partly implies less issue with the teaching prior.. but how explicit was his view] and was in the culture then of parcelling out to students, vs laying it out there (at the time all teachers seemed to)…
    -touches on the issue of “by their fruits you shall know them” (how do their students do?
    -is the goal/biz-model to have students for yrs/ for-life?
    or to have students for a seminar every now and then- and yet those student able to do and show skill?
    If you’re goal is to building student’s tuition ongoing, and they learn and leave….. (and open their own school and compete with you….) and if you goal isn’t to make money, then likely fewer people know about you(?)…

    those that are known, are making the effort to put our videos (and thus so many are either hype-selling themselves, or agenda-based seeking agreement.. either way, combine that with any other industry’s practices (go up to Intel, or other computer CPU and micro-chip designs and demand, why don’t they provide their chip-design-specs? if they aren’t open-sourced then it is fake, if people can’t figure it out on their own…. and if most thinking to ‘reinvent the CPU’ haven’t spent time learning at MIT or Cal-Tech, etc… haven’t put in the bench-time working boards….

    (I think the above issues are more important concepts than a single idea or so, as we each have different contexts, and areas of development, and as each interps what others write as relating to what we think (and thus confusion arises from seeming to be in the same conversation and yet not), personally I’ve written about the above, so I apologize to any that see this post as too-long (forum’s make what would be a short-article, or even a few pages in a book, seem like a long post).. I add this tail-comment only in case what I wrote didn’t seem to answer your question (I intend to poke at what I think is the real-question ….?)

    .. in terms of SURGE (L)ARC (S. Meredith) take the charge in the lower-ab-core (relates to the “e-ball” between hands.. not that place, but that freq of feeling, if you can find that and ‘drop’ it.. and let it go down and see if it returns.. (all his drills and exercises either tune-you-in to the sense of the different ‘waves’ (hard-soft) over-time as a result of the exers, or they build and layer and in an area… with that residual change then being used in the next practices etc.)

    (rebound per him refers to how the vibratory-density seems to return from ‘under’ the ground… but once the arc-circuit is built it is sustained as a whole..

    ie imagine, not a good image, but what the heck, I’ll end here.. imagine a whole bunch of tennis-balls, one-at-a-time drop; the first one bounces up (not physical, but the result of the ‘charge’ etc.. all his descriptions).. and just as the first one is bouncing up, ‘as’ it is bouncing up, you drop the 2nd.. and as the 1st and the 2nd are rising.. the 3rd… etc….

    ie It isn’t not an undulation, but take a staff (a good pole is a great martial and chigung tool :) hold it vertically staff-style and lift it a bit and drop so the butt/bottom thuds on the ground. It isn’t a down and flowing up the staff- the second it hits the top of the staff buzzes from the shock.. (it seems simul, though is speed-of-push per physics)
    this is distinct from a single tennis-ball (as above), or say a slinky..
    This above when referring to physical movement, or even physical connection would clearly be physical. But that doesn’t mean interpretations can be applied to what someonte wants to work on (vs following the method via the system taught by someone who knows.. (so not saying the others are wrong but combining can be confusing, I only mentioning as those discussed I have some experience, so hopefully it is correct and of value in sharing my view.)

    **I’ve found that finding who knows, and what they know, and whether they’d be willing/able to teach.. is a big part of the (on-going) search, not a first-step.. and likely require reinvestigating, over-time (espec as your understanding/exer and goals change, and perhaps something new arises- is it jumping to the greener-grass? or is it a new-doorway/window of oppor has opened? hard to tell… need to recog, as well as, be ready-for, oppors…

    (as you, Bob, wrote in other posts, the key is to follow the method your teacher is instructing you.. To have a complete method from a direct-teacher, may not be so easy.. (which I’d say is one-on-one instruction, not even in a group class, but like any athletic coach, if the coach doesn’t know you, and is watdhing and tracking your performance in relation to goals (your’s or the team’s).. with fdbk along the way, even yearly notcing, this time last yr you wanted xyz.. how far have you come? changed your goals? etc.. (and their “corrections” ~their explaining what you aren’t getting is the real-point, vs going off on a tangent.. )..

    ….or not one’s personality, some need/want to seek and match and blend/expand… (thus I think some want to find the overlapping-edges.. and struggle to find common-ground between frames of reference that aren’t the same (and reveal the blind-spots of either, without ‘losing the __ with the bath-water)…

    –and contrast this if one can’t find such a teacher and get access to them, and can only get recorded videos, perhaps watch/attend a class here and there.. and not establish the fluency to be able to interp (once one is trained enough, and developed such a foundation then one can view recorded videos and see, and interp what seems to be going-on.. and has the tools to test out a guess, and see what they find.. etc…

    just as one that has been trained classical in music can glance at a score of notations and sense/hear it.. or mathematically trained can ‘read’ the ideaspace inherent within a set of formulas, where others might be even able to decipher the formula -but only see equations of variables for numbers….

    -in that vein, looking at the referenced video, or others, what seems to be occuring? not from an untrained viewpt.. but put yourself in the experience of the student/receiver being pushed/affected.. and then in the experience of the doer/performer.. and not just see what an untrained person would see, but what your internal-training… read-between the lines..

    just as a martial-artist/fencer/dancer can see a person standing and tell: is their weight centered, on one leg or the other, moving or stuck.. are they engaged ~ready-to-bolt, or unengaged ~they’d need to grab with their mind inside.. Just like learning ABCs.. (Cat Act, Tac…) letters and combos,, built up and developed, that isn’t the end, but only the beginning- so I hope above isn’t seeming too obvious on all those reading that have experience with that already (having started that foundation), but that is just an example rrelated to other skills and sensations (You mentioned ATS, not the same, but relates to ‘italics’ and ‘covering’)


    Just to add what you are seeing here, from the Earts/Bruce perspective: Bruce teaches often: the energy that rises may not fall, but energy that goes down causes an energy to rise… ~like a Tsunami, the water-lvl goes down before it surges back up… (similar idea? think Bruce means in TaiChiChuan that one hand going-down causes the other hand to rise, refers to a physical rebounding? -That is a bit different than what is being discussed, merely interoduced as my opinion is that this seems to be a core Earts concept-tool).
    ~Brush Knee instructions, also in the Golden Needle to Sea Bottom, or Pull-down up to Shoulder-stroke. In the Wu, but I think a bit more detail re this up/down of E in the Old Yang.
    -also in the Hsing-I program (Tzuan chuan)

    So one might interp that what Bruce is saying in physical-connections of movement, but if seen as energetic (per words he uses, espec in the TaiChi material, or CloudHands: in Opening the Energy Gates.. even in Dragon&Tiger), then that would seem to be the same thing to the Energetic aspects (ie Meredith presenting similar/not conflicting to what Bruce is teaching)… although, again, what Mr. Cunningham is shown is clearly something, just keeping distinct, and whether you are seeking to align with what Bruce/Earts is doing, or if you seek to supplement/add-to it. (ala missing piece concept)

    .. One concept which is interesting is to take a distinctly concrete dynamic like this compress-rebound shock-wave (even start making it real obvious with an exagerated rise and then slump really dropping your weight and then rise with the rebound to best notice where the links aren’t connected…)
    and alt with a faster ver- back and forth (the video demos the skill, but doesn’t show his devel-steps/method)..

    and then as you do this and reduce what is blocking/disrupting/resisting it, you can comenserately reduce the initial jolt (as less is needed, as more is going through- like how a reducing the resistance in a circuit requires less electrical power input for the same flow-through output).

    Then as you continue to make more subtle and smaller in initiation, as well as perhaps a shorter path, and also a greater connectivity of the entire line…
    it seems to become something else than just physical (even though it still is… just more refined).. although doing this, until the grosser-jolt is done long enough it is engrained.. like writing (a kid learning to write, vs an adult that does it on purpose, they want to write they can and do.. vs want to write and ‘try’.. once you have the skill… you have it)..

    * -so it is still physical, but make it more a shift-vib-jolt and it can seem a different thing (and as James writes, Hsing-I and Bagua can use these jolt-blding blocks to then build something beyond the pure-simple jolt itself ~more complex flows, even seeming a different exression).

    So if you are looking at other’s info to try and learn-add from, above just some ideas deending upon who is reading this and working on this materal

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