Tai Chi Inferior to Baguazhang

[Anonymous]

Hi guys, I was reading “The Power of Internal Martial Arts” and I understood that Bruce Frantzis felt bagauzhang was inferior to taijiquan, but I really couldn’t understand why exactly. Can anyone explain that to me? I am trying to get into either or, but I want to learn the art that has the most benefits. If it helps, I come from a wing chun background, and want to keep practicing it.

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

hi there

good question.

I do both, and I find they are both excellent.
but there are differences.
I find myself doing a lot more bagua than taiji
from a health perspective, bagua seems to energize me more, while taiji is more soothing.
martially, the bagua seems much more sophisticated in how it works.
I never felt like I could truly improvise using karate (my first art), or taiji, but the bagua movements make spontaneous movement and natural reaction a reality. and it happened fairly quickly, single palm and circle walk is a pretty complete, spontaneous, and natural fighting method.
then each other palm cranks it up another notch or 2.
from a spiritual perspective, nothing does it for me like the bagua walk, around a tree, barefoot. I don’t wanna get all wu wu on you, but it’ll open ya up.

as a teacher, I find people who are digging this stuff, tend to want to check it all out a bit, get the feel for it at first. over time, they start focusing on the arts that resonate with them the most. later, as they grow, they start having more of an interest in other methods.

but most times, after a couple of years, people start to gravitate towards the bagua zhang.
maybe that’s because of how I teach, but it’s also because bagua is more in line with the average person’s interests; they don’t really want to slow down, they want to keep going, but be smooth and comfortable while they get a lot done.

I find bagua training to be much more engaging for yoga types of folks, compared to taiji or chi gung. once a yogi or yoghini get some real energy going, the bagua becomes a place where they can do more with prana, play with it, learn about it.

another thing I found about bagua; it adds to and completes the movement skills of wing chun; the stepping methods really open up the movement so you can get to those angles better. Ive noticed 2 or 3 top wing chun guys who also practice bagua, although they don’t fess up to it…

finally, if your digging the whole taoist thing, bagua is a pure taoist art, and it’s a specific learning tool for spiritual development.
If I understand it right, taiji was originally a pragmatic fighting style, that used taoist nei gung and shaolin fighting movements to get it done.
Bagua is more integrated as a life art.

just my opinion, and id love to hear what others have found.

see yall at wind palm!!!

and much thanks to bruce, for the super download. words don’t do it justice…

[Anonymous]

Hi,
I have been lucky enough to practice all three of the internal martial arts with Bruce, and it’s impossible to say that he thinks one is better than the other.

His Ba Gua has tons of sweeping, slicing, chopping, whomping and slapping. Think of a blender that’s overfull being put suddenly onto full power sending fruit and stuff splattering all over the walls and ceiling.

His Tai Chi has crunching, catching, snapping, bending, breaking, constricting, grinding. Imagine a wood chipper where everything is sucked into it and chopped into millions of shattered, broken pieces.

His Hsing-I has crushing, stomping, blasting, penetrating, drilling, sawing, smashing, tearing, ripping. This would be akin to welding a large chainsaw to the front of a semi truck rolling downhill out of control right at you with no brakes.

You could use any of the three to reach a high level of martial arts skill, and I think it takes quite an extraordinary person to learn more than one in depth.

He designed the Internal Martial Arts for Health program so that all his students could get an introduction to all three arts, before picking one to specialize in.

First you learn these three in any order:
Wu style Tai Chi Short Form
Hsing-I San Ti standing
Ba Gua Single Palm Change

Then you pick one system to explore in depth:
Wu Style Tai Chi Long Form
Hsing-I Five Elements
Ba Gua Eight Palm Changes

Once you’ve learned the IMA for Health basic three, you’ll be in a good position to pick which system to pursue in depth.

Good luck and good training!

Jess O

[Anonymous]

Thank you both for your awesome answers!

A follow-up, if I may ask – so from what I gather, neither taijiquan or baguazhang teachers elements from the other? For example, my current Wu style instructor told me that xing yi is linear and has vertical circles, bagua is circular and has horizontal circles, and taiji is both linear and circular, and has both horizontal and vertical circles. Is that true, or does each system have a bit of everything (with obvious differences in emphasis, of course)? I know I can’t learn everything about everything, but I was hoping for an art that had at least a tiny bit of everything. I see a little bit of that in taijiquan, but what I heard and baguazhang is so intriguing…

Also, you say baguazhang is Daoist. Do any of arts have Zen or Chan influence as well?

Also worth noting, I cannot afford the Bagua Master program at the moment (just a broke college student), so I bought DVD’s to Dr. John Painter’s Jiulong Baguazhang system. I understand Dr. Painter and Master Frantzis are acquaintances, so I wonder if anyone here has heard anything about Jiulong Baguazhang, because if you do baguazhang right now, it will probably be that system.

[Anonymous]

HI,

Yes, the circles you describe sound correct to me. I think all three arts can give you everything you need, but there are differences in emphasis as you say. So you can’t go wrong with doing Tai Chi or Ba Gua.

In Daoism they have circle walking, and Bruce’s teacher did that when he lived at a monastery for 10 years. So that is different from Ba Gua the martial art. Bruce teaches both.

As for Zen and Buddhhist influence, I’m sure many martial arts internal and external have taken concentration and awareness techniques from Buddhist Meditation and added it to their martial art, probably all Chinese martial arts have this influence to some degree or another.

Bruce speaks highly of John Painter, and some of my friends have learned from him, they say he is a great teacher! I hope you get to learn with him!

Take care,

Jess O

[Anonymous]

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Academic interest. Looking to learn, self defense takes priority, a internal Kung Fu style to give depth to my skills. Help me, please.

[Anonymous]

Just to layout another aspect, as I see it, in terms of any Offering/Art what one is “willing & able” to do… as well as the issue of access.. (to go Econ Theory)

Willingness (below point) is in relation to how it is presented, how it is “offered”, and yet the issue of able to (ie this is all biz, but in terms of Martial Arts/Energy Systems, etc… a teacher/system can’t teach what they don’t know- even if they are willing to.. and contrarily, a teacher may know alot, but not currently how they share it is an issue (willingness& accessibility)). Thus the four corner of Willingness, vs Ability.
Ability- or knowledge, areas of expertise (it is not One is best, and all others less- in terms of what: the Taoist phrase, What is is useful for? What does it do? -in relation to; “what is your purpose?”)
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In short- apples and oranges… (and as Bruce has referenced, one needs to know basic mathematics and reasoning/logic, and thus abstract-algebraic transformational relations.. before one can approach limit analysis and Set Theory/fuzzy logic…
To have an expert best to have the basics down: not only to be prepared foundationally.. but also they may not be good at teaching that. -it may have been quite a long time, and it was likely quite easy for an Expert… oft those that become, clicked well/got-it.. -ie the example of would “Tiger Woods” be a good tutor for someone that hasn’t ever swung a golf club? -the usual misunderstandings of beginners also may not make sense to such either.

But, once you have the basics, one can learn more advanced from… and again, apples and oranges- leading-edge top-performance systems are held in those places that receive and pass them on (and hopefully augment/push-them)… but, by definition, to make those concepts simplified and accessible ‘to the outside’ makes them something else- an approx.. a bridge.
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So if you have a grid- Direct vs Indirect, and “North” vs “South” (as a stereotyping simplification)…
Direct being WYSIWYG (wisiwig.. ie you are instructed to do XYZ, and that is specifically it.. but once you get that, you need more.. more explicit, and yet not as “deep” or interwoven)..
vs Indirect.. hints and layers can be reached for (such a teacher/system often waits to see if you A) have the interest and drive to dig and search “struggle” and if you actually get out of it.. then parcels a bit more.. but each “nugget” can be “mined” and “percolated” for a while.. the “TaiChi” and “Martial” Classics could relate to this)

The other pole being N vs S.. Northern concept being membership in a group, systems and schools often having an “Outer court” and then an “inner court”… once one is in the system, all info is made avail, thus the trick is being in.. so what is outwardly avail, and open-classes, materials, is all mainly a recruiting-sample.. (and once in, no longer “steps” thus commercially this is tricky).. often inner court is not a commercial venture (thus in a house, or afterhours restaurant.. or Mtn Temple, Invite-Only.. etc).
vs Southern concept, which is Commercial face- each package is made largely self-contained, and a step, and then the next (not an Outer vs Inner- rather different pkgs, or classes, each one involves mentioning/selling the next lvl).. Mall-Dojos are good examples of this, if you can walk in off the street, and watch and join up.. and then quit at any time (vs a “commitment to continue)…

Thus if you see the four combination “corners” often seen the Indirect-N, and Direct (explicit)-S

Put this in relation to the “Ability” (ie what they know- not “Do they are don’t they” know, but What do they know? ~who.. /purpose (ie the Tiger Woods example, most would agree he knows golf, and that whole world as well as that game.. but does he know TaiChi Chuan? likewise a knowledge TaiChiChuan practitioner may or may not know golf.. or Bagua.. but also, what aspects of TaiChi? -most systems out there do know breakdown the 16 NeiGung Bruce laysout- ex: Twisting vs Spiralling, or Lengthening vs Threading, vs Shrink&Grow.. etc.. [See all the Videos on the Energyartsvideos YouTube channel, or on “TaiChi TIps” on blog on this site… alot there to work on and “sample” & chew-on]… but other aspects are emphasized by other teachers..
and Willingness (four corners- typing?) of that systems culture-style.. and ability (what is know, and how to learn, thus what can one learn and thus what can one do).. last is access….

Access- local class in your area? once a month, or a couple times a week? is a great teacher you can travel an hour to get to once a month, or even once every two months, worth as much or more as more freq classes? (a mixture? have high lvl training “infusion” and a practice group to meet every couple of days? —-at the least, what personal-Daily-practice do you do, alone? builds up like sheets of paper piled-up.. each sheet adds little, but over time, stacks up.. and what seemed explicit when first mentioned, as you “Do it” changes what you see… it gets in you, and changes you.. (think over a few yrs- and longer– although you should have “benefits” in the First Class, let alone a noticeable development in the first month or so.. but assume you won’t see the fruits for a few yrs (like seeds planted, and an area of land developing.. like trees growing into a yard-str).
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So related to access- yes the modern recorded info, video (it was VHS tape, and then DVD, and now streaming online-video.. and yet still how it is integrated into one).. it is so easy to angle a slight bit “off course” and over time…. (the more Powerful the concepts and methods, the greater this Impact, if you are learning mellow-weak concepts, the degree of not quite right won’t impact as much…)

But where do you seek to go, what seek become (and freq revise).. and I’d consider each different teaching, especially by different teacher-systems -but even in the same system/by same teacher- are they Mutually Exclusive or Contrasting? -Is there any feel of conflict of one practice to another.. so you do practice “A” and then you do practice “B”.. and the underlying approach and fundamentals either clash, or even just destabilize your getting-it.

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Hopefully above makes sense (and might indicate might approach method, of the four-corners [ espec as I hope there is more in this from what might arise in a first encounter-read-through.. I hope it might be able to help and add over time]

The recent questions- what should I look into, where classes? -I think are contrained by Access.. but also the WIllingness (4 corners) combined with Ability (one needs to analyze, and thus have a sense of what could be taught- before one really knows– to determine where to begin, if that makes sense )…

Above, has been referenced by Bruce in his books, and talks, and might give a general view to augment what Jess (I love the concise 3 arts examples cmt) and Richard (great context on a transition-story as he changed from one to another) wrote.

best wishes

[Author]

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