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February 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm #128476
Hello, could you please clarify if there should be a waist turn as the weight shifts to the weighted foot? thank you.February 24, 2012 at 6:24 am #132144
There is no waist turn in movement 1, just the weight shift. Both Bill and Kurt are flexible from practicing for many years. If you watch their arms and shoulders, you’ll see this fluidity and flexibility which with may give the illusion of the waist turning, but I assure you it doesn’t.
On another note, I have seen people with stiff bodies try to turn the waist because they can’t quite get their elbow and hand around to their side comfortably. You don’t want to do this. Only go as far as what is comfortable for you. If you keep with the 70% rule, listen to your body and practice regularly, you’ll increase your flexibility pretty quickly.
DejotaFebruary 24, 2012 at 2:41 pm #132145
Thank you!February 28, 2012 at 9:25 pm #132146
I’m wondering about the fact that you say there isn’t a waist turn. The Taiji classics say that all chi moves from the feet to the waist and is delivered to the shoulders, arms and hands. Is it possible that there is more of an internal spiraling that is not evident in the move but, makes the hands turn? Otherwise, how would the chi be delivered and moved? I’ve also taken the Ba Gua program and found that the “Internal twisting” that Master B. K. Frantzis talks about would fit here. That the arms turn because of an internal spiral but, that to a “beginer” they would still be too stiff to have this kind of internal spiraling. I understand the point is to balance the vertical meridians but, wouldn’t say an internal spiral that starts from the big toe moving up through the legs to the waist and then to the shoulders, arms and hands be possible?
Elaine – Just thought it would be good to see everyone’s reaction to this!February 29, 2012 at 6:16 pm #132147
Your comments are interesting and provocative. However, my “reaction” is that they are too esoteric and distracting to be helpful here. Simply, the waist does not turn.. Energy is moved in an up and down, heaven and earth pattern as illustrated by Bill’s patting technique and clearly diagrammed in the book. Whether a qigong beginner or an advanced practitioner, reasonably correct technique and familiarization with the energy patterns is all that is needed to “move” the qi. This is a system that works beautifully, if we do not get in the way of ourselves.
BobMarch 1, 2012 at 10:14 pm #132148
While I agree that it is a fairly simple system of movements, I don’t think that trying to understand the underlying principles will “get in the way of ourselves” learning. I don’t believe that “simple knowledge” equals “understanding”.
In B. K. Frantzis’ Dragon Tiger book, his introduction states that “the first two movements are front-end loaded with movement and chi principles that are common to all the Dragon and Tiger moves as well as to other forms of chi gung, tai chi and martial arts”. Thus the quote from the “Tai Chi Classics” principle – all chi moves from the feet to the waist and is delivered to the shoulders, arms and hands. I ask this in an effort to “Understand” how the movement works.
His book also states (when talking about feeling your chi), “Over time, this increased sensitivity will help you naturally develop a personal and experiential felt sense of your chi moving along the pathways. As this happens, you will begin to learn to use your intent together with your movements to more strongly direct your chi.” Again I’m looking to “understand” the principle of the movement.
Also, his book talks about the 70 percent rule in which; “Whether you are a novice or an experienced practitioner, this method (70 percent) will help you to move through the levels of accomplishment faster. Incorporating the 70 percent rule into your practice may include: How much you turn your waist.”
I have looked at the book, watched the DVD and looked at our on-line course material and there isn’t any place that I see/hear – NO WAIST TURN. Now if there isn’t a waist turn, why do the videos and the book say to “turn” the hand? Would a hand ‘turn” and/or move with out the waist? If so, how would the chi move? Since the taiji principles state otherwise, I do wonder.
You say the “energy is moved in an up and down, heaven and earth pattern”. I understand the hand movements, I just want to understand the “intent”. As the “intent directs the chi”. In other words I would rather do a movement that is “full” of chi than an “empty” movement. Yes, I do understand that you don’t need to “know” how the chi moves to get an effect but, isn’t it nice to “understand” that the chi moves?
Thanks for your patience as I do like to hear what others are doing and thinking in their practices. Sorry for being long winded, just wanted to make sure that you understand I’m not trying to be “provocative” just working on understanding.
Elaine March 2, 2012 at 3:28 am #132149
Wow. Be in peace and have a good practice.
BobMarch 2, 2012 at 7:13 pm #132150
This is a good question. I’ve often asked about the neigong components in Dragon and Tiger. Bill would usually say something like, sure, you can put this or that in there, though that’s not really a part of it. It took me a while to figure out that unlike Bruce’s other material, including Taiji, Dragon and Tiger, being a meridian line or medical qigong, is not a neigong. The difference is that it works the body from the outside in instead of inside out. Now, energy does move in spirals which go in both directions in the channels, so yes, there is definitely internal spiraling of energy though as Bill mentioned in one of the recent videos, the energy is already moving, we’re just encouraging it.
When I first started, I could easily feel the energy but not my body so much. Both are equally important. Aside from the physical movements, your intent is to move the energy on the outside of your body along the pathways with your hands. For now, it really is as simple as that. After you have that down, there are refinements and you will be able to go deeper later one but as I’ve heard Bruce say a number of times, you have to start with what is easy. The 70% rule does apply to everything, including how much you turn your waist, when there is actually a waist turn. You don’t need to turn your waist to spiral energy up from your feet to move your hands. As I’ve heard Bruce and Bill often say, don’t think your way through the movement, feel. Feeling is more important than knowing intellectually. After you have the movements down, then feel what’s going on in your body and see if you can feel what makes your arms twist. The key to feeling is to get the movement down so you don’t have to think about it and then relax. You’ll learn a lot more that way. Good luck.
DejotaMarch 3, 2012 at 12:47 am #132151
….my understanding is that the waste turns coherently with the kwa and shoulders nests, i.e., the waste doesn’t turn separately relative to the kwa and shoulders nests, they all turn together joined by the four cornered ‘picture frame’ Bill refers to. That structural integrity works both physically and energetically.March 3, 2012 at 3:03 pm #132152
This has been a good converation, no? Back and forth between trying to understandi the details of the movements and understanding the underlying principles. Both are important and feed each other.
First, let me answer Terry’s original question about a Movement 1 detail. No, there is no waist turn in Movement 1. You want to keep your hips stable and relaxed. Try not to turn them or let them bob up and down. They remain at about the same height at all times during the movement.
Now to turn to the rest of the conversation, it’s important to realize that you don’t need an obvious physical turning of the hips to stimulate the expression of energy flows in your hands. A simple up and down movement of the feet and legs as in Movement 1 will activate the spiraling energy flows of the body.
To go further, if once you have learned to do such a simple movement well – relaxed, smooth, rhythmically, etc. – and you then put neigong practices into it such as twisting or spiraling the soft tissues of the legs and arms, you will intensify the body’s energy flows greatly.
As Bruce has incorporated Dragon and Tiger into the Water Tradition body of practices he teaches, he has organized the process of studying it into 9 levels of learning. That was the number I last heard, although he may have refined his thinking since I last spoke to him about it. I currently am certified to teach up through Level 3.
Only in Level 4 or 5 do you begin to put into the movements neigong practices such as twisting the soft tissues or opening and closing the joints. In contrast, in the higher “degree of difficulty” arts of our tradition such as our Wu Style Tai Chi or our Bagua, you begin to put such practices in at Level 2.
This online course actually is an Introduction to Level 1. Our primary concern is to get the general shape of the movements and to begin to feel the energy pathways. So the key underlying principles at this point that you want to learn are to relax, maintain an open mind, and try to feel the chi continuously along the pathways. I try to articulate a key underlying principle of learning each week.
At this level of learning you’ll want to move your hands from your hands. At much later levels we’ll turn to how to move your hands from your feet, as Elaine was discussing.
Each level prepares you for the next. So even at this level we’re building the energetic and physical foundation pieces that will need to be in place to effectively realize the higher levels of practice.
But it’s good to look ahead, and try to get a context for what you’re learning now. So Elaine, thanks for raising your questions.
Thanks again to all for the discussion. It’s only through struggling with the kinds of questions that were raised here do you learn to think for yourself and come to understand things at a deep level.March 6, 2012 at 12:13 am #132153
Thanks for the clarification Bill. I’m enjoying Dragon Tiger very much and have already noticed many benefits. I want to give thanks to Master B.K. Frantzis & Master Jiang Jia Hua for this wonderful “Gem” of healing!!! Thanks also to Master Lui Hung Chieh whose wonderful teachings live on through Master Frantzis!
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