Longevity Breathing

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Axel and Colin.

Both are interesting perspectives. I hadn’t really thought about Mantak Chia and how he’s changed. I did a few seminars with him many years ago and some things with Michael Winn. From both an intuitive sense and a more analytic, considered evaluation, I just find Bruce’s system to be more comfortable.

The longevity breathing has been a really strong practice for me, particularly in the way it develops the central channel, something absent from the Meditation Circle materials. It’s also been very helpful for learning to feel the internal organs. To answer the original post, there are some things in common between Longevity Breathing and this circle, but also some important differences.

I’ve been in workshops with Bruce where he has taught other aspects of breathing. And on the Songs of the Tao, he teaches spinal breathing. So, I think there’s a deep, broad set of breathing practices that can be used in a variety of ways.

[Anonymous]

Matthew,

Can you tell a bit more about spinal breathing as taught in the Songs of the Tao? I thought the Songs were just some kind of liturgies, Chinese chanting; and now you are saying there are breating instructions, very interesting.

As for rhe longevity breathing, I’m really confused with it. On the one hand, we are supposed to follow breath from the top to the lower DT on inhale and from the LDT to the top on exhale. But at the same time, in the later lessons, we are to develope small back and upper back awareness, expanding, and relaxation with the upward movement on inhale. So my confusion has been how I can be aware of two movements that go in the opposite diractions.

[Anonymous]

Well, this leads back to the practises itself. Analyzing what I really learnt with Mantak Chia; I remarked that I not really got opened the small circulation, but a good movement of the elemental fusion ball of organ energies in it. The third eye was clearly open coming to him as he put the energy for the small circulation in it without resistance by his chi eyes. But he could also install an automatisized circulation moving by itself not needing your participation.

Coming to him i had invented also using kundalinilike the pathway from the coccyx into the head. i revisited this approach by one of the many offsprings of yogananda called AYP. making it much easier also in comparison to the tiresome opening and closing the centers as acupoints on the spine giving rarely a streaming energy. So it is simply not true that his foundational course opens the small circulation.

Today I revisited
The Master, the Monks and I: A Western Woman’s Experience of Zen von Gerta Ital

with her explanation and quick enlightenment experience by the breathing and energy techniques direct from the master and not in the text and commentary but hinted by the swallowed hot iron ball first in the frontline downwards than upwards from the tip of the coccyx to the head. Without any idea of the sequences of a meditative practices i picked only swallowing the iron ball with remarkable success as getting the backline is a question of the spillover of the energies of the frontside to the back. Mantak Chia in his propaganda for his orbit reports surely correctly that masters put their thumb perhaps transmitting energy to the navel or perhaps deeper to the sea of energy als place for meditation.

It was really fine for me that i could read and follow the Ital text getting stillness and a broad and easy stream in the microcosmic orbit andsigns of the macrocosmic one also. Her published speech in Japan on her quick development is surely included in the text.

My way with Bruce Frantzis is more difficult to describe and got efficacy and a main practice since longevity breathing and its books since 2002 though Mantak Chia helped or disturbed in other practices by similar breathing etc not grasping the real kernel.

but i had 2005 an important breakthrough by beginning to work over the kidneys using the kidney breathing of Mantak Chia getting the region relaxed with a false counting method compared to book and mostly lying on the back or the side as “advanced” for longer and longer sessions.

Also the experience letting come the breath deeper and deeper in the middle channel but giving me no organ connection like matthew
showed me that it lacked sufficient consciousness and openness with blockages an mist.

The connection to the etheric body I did not solve being more inward orientated and inner dissolving than outer ones. The appliance of dissolving methods is a next stage in the meditation circle.

Axel

[Anonymous]

Hi, Igor.

First, to be clear, I’m not an expert. I’ve just done a lot of work with the books, CDs, as well as quite a few workshops with both Bruce and his senior students. So take everything I write with that understanding.

About the songs of the tao, there are actually instructions about posture, breathing, and meditation that precede the liturgies. For example, there’s a liturgy specifically related to breathing with the spine. So, Bruce introduces the concept by talking about how to do it for a few minutes, then the chant follows. He gives instructions on how to use the liturgies. There are several discs in the set. On a couple of discs, Bruce introduces the liturgies and then does the chants. These same liturgies, without Bruce’s talking, are repeated on another CD. It’s pretty interesting. I have used them a little and plan to work with them more. Now that I’ve worked through everything in the Meditation Circle, I plan to go back to inner dissolving, reviewing all the books and audio tracks. I hesitate to give anyone advice, since as I said, I’m not a teacher or expert on this stuff, but I think these tracks are valuable. I’ve done a number of workshops where Bruce has chanted liturgies and I’ve found it very powerful.

My own work has shown that the longevity breathing is a deep, rich practice. It’s focus on the central channel makes it significantly different than the breathing Bruce is teaching in this Meditation Circle. Specifically, your questions about breathing into the upper back is a complex one. In the Taoist Breathing CDs, he teaches that the central channel expands outward in all directions on the inhale and contracts inward on the exhale. This happens as the breath moves in through the nose to the central channel and then down to the LDT. The route is reversed on the exhale. To get the breath to move into the upper back is difficult and takes a lot of sensitivity and practice. But I’ve found that maintaining the breathing in the central channel while it expands and contracts makes it happen. The other thing is that you really have to relax everything around the lungs and in the back to allow the breath to get there.

As far as your awareness, I found that moving slowly, step by step, and following the directions on the Taoist Breathing CDs, I’ve been able to develop my awareness of these things. It literally has taken me years, and I still have a lot to learn. But it’s just the way I am – not especially talented, I guess. It took a lot longer than I thought it would. Paradoxically, when I relaxed and stopped trying to push and hurry the process, it seemed to happen more quickly.

I’ve been working with the 70% rule in all my practices, especially bagua, and I’m finding that really transforms things. In the Bagua Mastery Program, there’s one of the DVDs where Bruce gives a really great talk about the 70% rule and I really “got it” for the first time as a physical attitude and way to work with energy. Anyway, I can’t really explain it.

Hope some of this is helpful. I look forward to other responses.

Best wishes,
Matthew

[Anonymous]

Matthew,
you write:
“In the Taoist Breathing CDs, he teaches that the central channel expands outward in all directions on the inhale and contracts inward on the exhale.”

New for me and explaining how energy gets stored on the exhale in the LDT. I am accustumed to a long energy column through the whole body into the earth and not only through the nose.

“This happens as the breath moves in through the nose to the central channel and then down to the LDT. The route is reversed on the exhale. To get the breath to move into the upper back is difficult and takes a lot of sensitivity and practice. “

I agree and called it above a breakthrough as it happened suddenly joining in elemental stripes and the blue color of the kidneys gots combined with the white color though I do not remember a special event and color seeing for that. ‘But the energyisation and better passing of the awakened areas loosened the whole area and more above giving a better lead of energies also in the channels.

So I revisited on the dvd breathing with the tips of the lungs better included in some yogic breathing from the beginning by its centering more in the chest and less in the belly as taoist breathing.
as especially good food for the brain. though limited to this area the near death breathing of old people.

“But I’ve found that maintaining the breathing in the central channel while it expands and contracts makes it happen. The other thing is that you really have to relax everything around the lungs and in the back to allow the breath to get there.”

I had by Mantak Chia in the lower belly such a contraction and expansion which I visualized also. Perhaps I misunderstood Bruce in this part. I dropped the idea and took the contraction and expansion of belly breathing for it filling and grasping more and more the whole body and legs in a unit but not succeeding really in the fetus breathing.

I met this in the meditation circle again especially in loosening into the hips, kwa and testicles easily grasped by breathing through the middle channel to the pelvic region giving a strong penis.

It is interesting that consequent sequence of this course allows now taking without sequence each tape you like though you forgot the most of them. You get immediately familiar.

Axel

[Anonymous]

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for the description of the Songs of Tao. I might buy them. I haven’t done that so far only because I was afraid it would lie on the shelf gathering dust. I can actually confirm that Chinese chanting affects one’s meditation. I took some courses with Shou You Liang (he has a book Qigong Empowerment). And some meditations he teaches go along with Taoist poems/chanting. Pretty interesting stuff.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the Longevity Breathing. I was doing it some time ago but put it on hold at a point where breath is supposed to stabilize in the LDT. At that point I became confused as to how I should deal with the following the breath down and expanding the spine muscles up from small back to the upper back to accommodate more air at the same time. The idea of the central channel expanding and contracting is indeed an interesting one. Would you call it sort of pulsing (as one of the neigung components)? I’m desperately trying to find any hints in Bruce’s material on other components of 16-system neigong because I don’t have any Art’s instructors near me. It looks like Bruce and his instructors teach spiraling, pulsing, opening/closing, and other fascinating stuff in person only.

[Anonymous]

…….my experience is broadly in line with Matthew’s although I’ve spent rather more time with Songs of the Tao than I have the Longevity Breathing audio (‘Songs’ was introduced during Bruce’s ‘Gods Playing in the Clouds’ retreat some years back and I found the liturgies very helpful in deepening my practice). I’m no expert but it seems to me that breathing in the ‘Water’ tradition is multi-layered and multi-faceted. Some activities focus on being attentive to the air moving in physical airways, whilst others target awareness on gross and subtle aspects of physical movement associated with breathing throughout the body. At more subtle levels, awareness focuses on ‘centre to periphery’ and ‘periphery to centre’ breathing in various organs and other anatomical areas. Other practices involve breathing from and to the etheric field into specific energy channels or parts of the anatomy (e.g., the spine). The way Bruce presents the breathing material in different ways in lots of different elements of the system encourages ongoing iteration and exploration between the various threads of the 16 Nei Gong. From my limited experience, I trust Bruce’s judgement on what practice is most relevant to which part of the system. E.g., the breathing practice advocated in the Meditation Circle programme is most appropriate for achieving the objectives of the Circle. The other approaches introduced elsewhere fit appropriately in the other strands and over the years people gradually come to appreciate how things fit together as parts of a very sophisticated, yet elegently coherent, spherical whole. I’m currently struggling to progress month 16 practice breathing into and out of the physical heart centre and would welcome any advice, or shared experience, from others.

[Anonymous]

Matthew,

it would be fine if you give the exact lessons where the central channel expanding and contracting is dealt with.

Sad that this course is no continuing with the dissolving stage but a more philosophical course on tao te king. Surely it includes the water method but not primarily as a meditative course. I need further argument for a participation.

I think it has something to do with the lacking readiness to follow his instructions and not leaving away one does not like in public documents: Privately it’´s okay and I do it myself but for a public discussion this is not enough. And we had not much discussion and participation in it.

Axel

[Anonymous]

Hi, Igor.

I’m not knowledgeable enough to say whether the expansion and contraction of the central channel is the same as pulsing. Perhaps someone who knows can answer that question.

There’s a lot about opening and closing, bending and stretching, and other aspects of the 16 nei gung in the Bagua mastery program. There is quite a bit there I haven’t seen anywhere else. But even there, he doesn’t teach anything about spiraling. That’s the one qigong set, the spiraling energy body, that I haven’t had a chance to study yet.

Do a web search for Paul Cavel. He’s a senior instructor in the uk and has a lot of good stuff on his web site. Robert Tangora, another teacher who has studied with Bruce and others and has a high degree of mastery, just published a book that has a lot of very deep material consistent with what Bruce teaches. Search on amazon. It’s called the internal structure of cloud hands and has some really useful qigong sets. He has a website, too, where is can buy his DVDs. However, I have to warn you that although the content is really quality, the production values are not as high as Bruce’s. You can see clips on his site and make a judgement about whether it would be worth it to buy them. You can do a web search on his name and find the site. I’ve done a few workshops with him and bought the DVDs on Zhong ding qigong. He’s a great teacher: very articulate and clear, and he really knows his stuff. He’s in Santa fe, I think.

Anyway, I hope those are some useful threads for you.

Best,
Matthew

[Anonymous]

I think you’re right, Colin, about trusting Bruce about the context he teaches the different techniques in. And you’re correct that we should follow the specific instructions relevant to the meditation circle.

About the heart breathing. It’s working for me, but it’s a very small movement in an area I can feel behind and to the left of my ribs. I find, that like breathing into the other organs, it’s easy to confuse the feelings you get from the muscles and fascia directly below the skin with the deeper sensations from the internal organs. So, I’m getting better at centering my awareness in the heart and getting some in and out motion there as I breath. It’s very much like, but definitely not the same, as the feeling of the air going in and out of the lungs. It’s a very powerful feeling when I get it going, unmistakable for anything else. And it has a tremendous calming effect but also gives me easier access to my emotions, elevating them above the subliminal level.

Good luck with your practice,
Matthew

[Anonymous]

Hi, Axel.

I’ll go back and listen to the taoist breathing CDs to find the lesson he talks about this in. I seem to recall in its several. I haven’t listened to them since beginning this circle.

I apologize, but I don’t really understand the last paragraph of your post. Could you explain it a little bit?

Best, Matthew

[Anonymous]

……..helpful and encouraging, thanks Matthew.

[Anonymous]

Hi, Matthew,

your description of the heart has perhaps brought me the impression sought for. It is the calm, disciplined and courageous heart of a warrior with a link to the back head.

In french courage has the same root as coeur meaning heart.

A good occasion to recall my heart experiences of other types filling the whole chest. Here more a writing board and table where the sufi sheikh writes into your heart on its back.

My regret that Bruce presumably disappointedly discontinued the meditation course needs no repetition. I asked why taoteking continues this course has no answer yet.

Axel

[Anonymous]

Greetings, I feel like my longevity breathing is getting a lot better – especially my diaphragm movement.
Once I’m settled in I feel like I am able to to a 30 second breath but I’ve noticed that my exhale seems to be shorter than my inhale.
Should I shorten my inhale to compensate for the weaker link?
Any suggestions?
Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Bruce mentions in several different places and contexts that you should use the weakest link as the measure. So in this context, you should should match your inhale to the shorter exhale. At one point in the audio of the Taoist Breathing CDs, he says something like: “If the exhale is weak, relax it until it is no longer weak.” I don’t know where exactly this is, but I remember it distinctly. Try this and see what happens.

[Author]

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